craddock 0 #26 July 29, 2003 QuoteThe point you seem to be missing is...That you may not have that choice. I had to land a 113 in a VERY small field I did not miss the point at all Ron. I just have tried to imagine the situation where that would be the best out. My office is 12 x 12. I have never seen a backyard that small. Now put a fence around it right next to a powerline. Assuming there are trees outside of the fence( otherwise I could land there right?) there is also turbulance present. I am prepared to land on a roof if I have to, in the driveway, or if I have to sink my canopy down in the trees and deal with it. I have the utmost confidence in my accuracy, but I feel sinking past powerlines to hit a fenced in 12 x 12 yard in turb. is probably not going to be the best option I have. I have thought about this quite a bit over the years, and at some point the trees have to be a better option. Or the roof. How many pilots have died on the runway or trying to get there rather then lose their wings in the trees? Yes there are risks either way. I think you missed my point. Josh Edited to add that I don't think we have to many 120 foot trees around here so that could change my perspective a bit. Your landing sounds interesting- definitaly not for the faint of heart. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #27 July 29, 2003 I have a Tempo 120 loaded to 1.65, and my DZ is 5000ft ASL. I've landed it fine 3 times so far. Doesn't surf more than 40 -50 feet though, even off a 180 swoop. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
apoil 0 #28 July 30, 2003 Call or Email PD today. Demo a reserve. $30 covers the shipping to you, and the inspection when you return it. you hook it up as a main and jump it. I have a PD113 reserve at 1.8 in my container now. I simply wasn't going to do that until I was sure I could land it under normal conditions. I put 5 jumps on a 126 and 5 more on a 113. Its not the softest landing in the world but it is entirely acceptable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #29 July 30, 2003 Well, I've got a good story about having to land in a VERY bad place with no outs, with powerlines and obstacals...I posted it as "How Aggie almost died" in the General Skydiving Forum. Now, I was under my main (I explain that in that thread), but the point I'm trying to make is still very valid. Check it out, if you hadn't read it before.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 July 30, 2003 Well a 12 X 12 yard DOES sound a little far fetched, but the point was after all kinds of shit happens you may not have a large number of options, and worse...not much time to decide. I personally put the biggest reserve in my containier I can. The only reason I still have a 113 is I have had it like 8-9 years (I got it when they first came out). My next rig will not be the smallest thing I can get. I'm over that. But I'm 30, been jumping 10 years and 3000 jumps."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 July 30, 2003 Well, I have one more weekend on this pack job!!!! So maybe I can catch up! After this weekend I am gonna "give your girl the buissness"....If ya know what I mean."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #32 July 30, 2003 QuoteAfter this weekend I am gonna "give your girl the buissness"....If ya know what I mean. I am out of town, what my girl packs of yours while I am travelling is between you and her Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 July 30, 2003 QuoteI am out of town, what my girl packs of yours while I am travelling is between you and her I thought you are back today? (Wed). To bad I am busy tonight. I still need to get that PDA."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #34 July 30, 2003 Quotebut the point was Geez Ron, like I said from the first post if you go back and look. I got the point. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #35 July 30, 2003 i fly an atair 110 resreve, and i have rides on other small reserves i.e. pd 113, tempo 120 and a steller 120. my exit weight is almost 200#. absloutely no issues loading the atair or pd reserve that high, flies great and plenty of flare. the tempo and steller i found far less suitable, very poor flare and more sensitive stall. best advice: demo the reserve (in your main tray) before you buy. sincerely, dan<><> atair www.extremefly.comDaniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #36 July 30, 2003 Play nice guysDerek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 July 30, 2003 Well you said I missed your point...which I didn't...You said that a 12 X 12 was not likley...and I agreed. I have pulled my reserve as low as 600 feet...Now why I did this is another story, but I had less than 15 seconds till I landed ,And I had to kick out of line twists from my "gunslinger" reserve pull.....I pretty much landed right above where I was...which BTW was a tight little area with trees all around. It was not larger than 30 X 20. I had to fly between two of the trees (end cells almost hitting them) to be able to get in there. Now if I had been 100 feet higher I would jave made a nice large field...But I didn't have the 100 feet. I have great video of the whole thing.....From the camera guy above me. Bigger is better...just ask any girl."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #38 July 30, 2003 Well I have pulled my reserve below 500' while my girlfriend watched horrified from above me. Several reasons why this happened which I won't go into in this thread, but I was jumping at SDC where landing outs are not a problem. If I was jumping somewhere with limited outs it would make sense to break off higher, deploy higher, cut away higher ect. I agree shit happens. I knew where I was at on all four of my cut aways and as a result fought all of them as hard as I could. btw -my point was not only that a 12 x 12 fenced in backyard (right next to powerlines) was unlikely. Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 July 30, 2003 Like I said in our PM exchange, my reference of a 12x12 backyard and all of that stuff was being sarcastic, but to prove a point. Yes, it is unrealistic, but the point was you can't always choose where exactly you're going to land, you have to go with what you're given. So get over the entire 12x12 crap and realize what it really is. Just a reference to an idea.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #40 July 30, 2003 I am over the "12 x 12 crap" as you say. This is what I said in the last post. "btw -my point was not only that a 12 x 12 fenced in backyard (right next to powerlines) was unlikely. " Notice the "not only" I wish I had left out the "only" Hell mabey I should have the original post deleted. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement. It doesn't matter I will still take the roof or land in the trees if I have to rather than limiting myself to having to land in xxxxx next to xxx . Keep you options open. I only meant to make people think a bit and it all starts with better decisions up higher. Now here is what you just wrote. QuoteYes, it is unrealistic, but the point was you can't always choose where exactly you're going to land, you have to go with what you're given. You can see that I obviously disagree in regards to your unrealistic reference. Without being there I am still considering the roof as an option as well as taking a tree landing. I have a possible three choices where you have only one. Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #41 July 30, 2003 All of you chill out, you have already been warned once.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 July 30, 2003 I think we have reach the big difference between you and I anyway. QuoteI only meant to make people think a bit and it all starts with better decisions up higher. And the point I was trying to get across....And you should agree since you have had a 500 foot reserve pull... Is that there are times you don't have the option other than the one right below you...And you don't have the time to really think it out. You make some good points about the roof and the trees... And I have the same kind of thoughts....Many people would be alive if they had just taken the tree landing insted of the turn. I am not trying to change your mind....Hell I don't really care. But for the others reading this thread...When you say that you have to make good choices...I agree...But I also have to point out that sometimes you get stuck with no options. Having a few ideas in your head such as I'll land in the trees...or the roof...Are good. However, and I am sure you know this...that landing a 72 in a tree is in no way going to be pretty....The 106 will hurt, but you most likley will live. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #43 July 30, 2003 Just updated my profile. I am jumping an 82 this year. I no longer have the 72. Ron, I really don't think are views are that far a part on this one. We just choose to empahasize different points. Yours is that sometimes you don't have other options, mine point being plan to avoid that but when it happens, are you sure you have no other options. Many people have died because of this mentality in planes and under canopies. I have always understood the original point. I just tried to add to it. Sorry btw- I do wonder how bad I would get hurt landing in the trees. I have certinaly thought about it. I would use a very deep approach(although this would leave little protectoin for my face) and keep my legs together! Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #44 July 30, 2003 No we agree like you said... You plan to avoid. I plan just in case I can't...Cause I was not able to twice. Quotebtw- I do wonder how bad I would get hurt landing in the trees. I have certinaly thought about it. I would use a very deep approach(although this would leave little protectoin for my face) and keep my legs together! Place your arms in front of your face. With your elbows together, and your wrists together. Put your chin into your chest and your wrists on your forehead. To be at the right angle of approach with your canopy you might need to reach above your toggles, or even grab the lines and wrap them around your hand. Feet and legs together and plan to PLF until you stop. If you get caught in the tree, and are STOPPED try to grab on to the trunk, or a large branch. Don't be a hero and climb down...just chill. If you can get the canopy to come straight down you will be fine. With trees it is mostly forward movement that gets ya. Or worse hitting a tree, and having the canopy collapse and being dropped out of the tree....With a vertical descent it is not that bad...Lines and fabric almost always catch something, if not just PLF at the bottom. Tree landings thanks to the 82nd Airborne. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinaa 0 #45 July 30, 2003 Quotei fly an atair 110 resreve Did you mean Atair Quick 113 reserve or that 110 thing is something new? Thanks I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #46 July 31, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- btw- I do wonder how bad I would get hurt landing in the trees. I have certinaly thought about it. I would use a very deep approach(although this would leave little protectoin for my face) and keep my legs together! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Place your arms in front of your face. With your elbows together, and your wrists together. Put your chin into your chest and your wrists on your forehead. What Ron said. I started jumping in the 70's and with the round canopies (especially T-10 and TU (C-9 types) with limited steering and speed - I was involved in picking many people out of trees and also off buildings. No-one ever got seriously hurt as they all were drilled to do as described by Ron (was big part of training in those "roundie days"). Trees are quite "flexible" and normally not a hugh problem if not really tall or if you hit them at high forward speed.. I think there is a very valuable point made. People are extremely scared of landing in water, on roofs and in trees. Yes it can be a problem (depending the situation: i.e. how deep/"big" is the water, how steep is the roof etc.) but I think it is most of the time a much better option then a low turn. The only obstacle I would avoid at nearly any cost is power lines (and freeways ). So it would be a good issue to discuss at DZ's - too many people would rather risk a low turn then landing in trees and that IMO is not the right decision.... Just to emphasize what Ron said, I would try to take as much speed out of the canopy as possible just before hitting the trees.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #47 July 31, 2003 I jumped a pdr 106 with about 50 jumps on it, (RWS Skyhook Test Rig) and it landed incredibly smooth. I did do a 180 with it to increase landing speed, I have 3 jumps on a pdr113 and they were straight in and were nice and 3 jumps on my own pdr126, I prefer the landing I got out of the pdr 106, I got a nice swoop and a good finish out of it. But the other I landed straight in. I dont recomend anyone to land canopies this highly loaded especilly 7 cell f11 canopies. But I wanted to give you my results. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #48 July 31, 2003 QuotePlace your arms in front of your face. With your elbows together, and your wrists together. Put your chin into your chest and your wrists on your forehead. Exactly how I teach a FJC, however I would have to take several wraps to sink my canopy(main at least) it at the speed/angle I hope to enter the trees. I usually fly deep brakes at about my hip rings. Something I need to think about and play with a liitle. I am a little concerned about several wraps around my wrist rendering my arms useless. It would suck to lose an eye though. Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #49 August 1, 2003 QuoteI have flown a MR-109-M and a PD-106R loaded at 1.7/1.8:1. I have landed both at over 5,000 ft MSL. I managed to stand them up, but I wouldn't recommend it. They were very touchy to fly and land. The PD had a deeper flare and was harder to stall. 7 cell, F-111 canopies just aren't forgiving. Derek Hook, Shame on you! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #50 August 1, 2003 I have flown a pd 113 loaded at about 2.0. Without a head wind it lands like shit but its not something to worry about if you have the required skills.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
