My student froze on jumprun.

[tobi778 0]

Well, I had quite an interesting plane ride yesterday. I'll call it a plane ride cause no one actually got to jump on this one. I had a static line student who was about to make her third jump, the first and second being a while back and successful. She came to the DZ about two weeks ago and we went through the exit procedures and trained the emergency procedures in harness to refresh her memory. She told me that she was very nervous so I tried to calm her down and told her that she was going to do just fine, as her training went well.

Well, she showed up yesterday ready to jump and we went through the jump again so that everything would go well. She told me she was very scared but calmed down as I told her that that was perfectly normal after having only two jumps and a bit of a break in the student program.

When we got to the plane ( C-182 ) and practised the exit once again, I noticed that she was terrified. Her heart was pounding and she was sweathing. I thought well, nothing new here, I remember I was exactly the same way for my first jumps.

I asked the pilot to fly an extra long jumprun so that she would have more time to climb out on the strut. Just before jumprun I told her to put on her goggles, but she could not move. She told me she had no strenght in her arms and could not function. I asked her if she wanted to go down with the plane, but she did not answer so I told the pilot to make another run to give her some time to sort things out. I pep talked her for a while, and she said she wanted to try again. So as we start the second jump run I open the door and check the spot. Then i looked at her and she was all pale. I thought thats it, we are aborting this jump. She said that she could not do it, and down we went.

A while later after I had taken the rest of the load up again and landed she came to see me and told me she is quitting the sport. I offered her a chance to come back at a later time to try again, but I seriously doubt that she will.

Has any of you instructors had similar things or other out of the ordinary things happen on jumprun?

[Tonto 1]

Hey there,

I think you did the right thing. People know themselves. Better than you or I do - anyway. I get people asking me to push them out the door if they refuse - but how would I feel if they went in on that dive?

It's a numbers game. I've been a JM for 15 years, and most of that had a lot of SL dispatching out of Cessna'a. (182's, 185's, 206's, 207's 210's)

I do what I need to as a JM these days, but when someone says they can't do it, I ask if they're sure, and ride down with them. Contrary to what some believe, it takes guts to say no, and face everyone who thinks you're chicken. If I'd had the balls to say no some 18 years ago, I may have had a life - instead of a logbook, loads of friends and memories, both good, bad, and incredibly sad.

I guess when I was younger I always "boosted" them, and they climbed out and did their thing - but in those days I believed the sport was safe. These days I think it's fuc*ing dangerous - not cos it's any worse, but simply because I'm painfully aware of our chronological proxcimity to mayhem and instant death or lifetime maiming.

This sport doesn't like people who fuck up - or those that share airspace with them.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[slotperfect 7]

Well done.

As amazing and incredible as it is, this sport is not for everybody. It is inherently dangerous, although our highly advanced gear and training make it safer than many normal day-to-day activities on the ground.

The big thing with students on jump run is the quetion: "Are you ready to skydive?" Even though you've coached them positively on the ground to say "Yes, I am," some may decide they don't have it in them at the moment of truth.

I will never physically exit a student or be overbearing with them to get them to go if their answer is "No." I will never exit a tandem student who is holding on to the airplane. Injury and litigation are the possible results.

Liability is a part of the world we live in now, unfortunately, and we get to be tuned in to that.

Arrive Safely

John

[Muenkel 0]

From a student's perspective, I would never ask my instructor to just push me out of the plane if I panic. Exiting that plane is my decision and mine only (unless the jm says no for some reason). So when the JM asks me "Are you ready to skydive?" And I say "yes", I mean "yes".

And I do agree that it must take a lot of guts for someone to make the decision to ride the plane down for whatever reason. That person should never second-guess that decision.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[BBKid 0]

Hey Toby, I was this student, on my first jump - ready to go out the 182, happy about making my first static line jump, but when the JM told me to climb out, my body froze up.

It wasn't fear (any more than I had been feeling all day), and I really wanted to go, but after I put my first arm on the wingstrut, nothing else would move. I had to be pulled back into the plane by the JM, and he said we would go around one more time, and that if I didn't go the second time, we would land and the other two students wouldn't get to jump (last lift of the day).

It wasn't the threat of denyong others a jump that made me do it, but I knew that if I didn't jump that day I never would (vertigo), so out I went, and haven't looked back.

Having been through ths I'm pretty sure your student will not return to the DZ, and it's a real shame. However, I don't agree with those who say that this person may not be cut out to skydive, since we don't know until we've done it. It takes guts to say no, but with that comes a lot of embarrasment and possibly perceived shame.

If anyone knows this girl, they could let her know that no-one at the DZ is going to resent her for what she did, however, if she does come back they will be looking out for her.

Nick
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"I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!"

[tbrown 26]

I've never seen a student not jump (I'm not a JM either, but have seen students jump all the years). My first jump was from a C182 and our JM asked which of the three of us wanted to go first. I volunteered and my friends were more than willing to let me. Our JM took me aside for an extra special personal pep talk. He'd told us all that it would be normal to feel some fear in the door, but he told me personally that he was counting on me to be a good example to my friends and that if I didn't jump, nobody would because he'd have to take the full plane back down. I told him he could count on me and when he told me to climb out and go, I went. My two friends did just fine. Our JM, a guy named Dave Staub, was just really cool to talk to us the way he did, he gave us all confidence.

Sorry about your student, I don't think she'll be back either. But this is not for everyone. My wife made one static line jump and loved it. To this day she insists she had no fear at all. That was also the day love bloomed between us, so a few weeks later she came back to make her second. She was all geared up and waiting to load, when she told me she just couldn't do it. I told her she didn't have to if she didn't want to, that these were nice people and they wouldn't bite. I told her I loved her anyway and she didn't need to jump to make me happy, but only for herself. We went and scratched her off the load and got her money back and they were very nice about it. She's never jumped since (I still try to sweet talk her about a tandem now & then, but only if she wants to), but loves jumpers and jumping.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[adamjenner 0]

i remember getting the heebies jeebies and i actually still have them...like i don't want to jump from fear but i know i WANT to jump right? so basically i'm forcing myself to jump because i want to get over that fear and continue jumping!
It's a shame to see someone quit jumping, even after such few jumps. Hopefully she'll be back someday!
but when i didn't feel like jumping i didn't. but now i'm making myself jump, and i love it

[nightjumps 1]

Ya know, I find it interesting. I have a similiar story with a different result. Female student does great through the training, we go up in the plane, on jump run I ask her, "Are you ready to skydive?" and she responds with a loud and thunderous, "YES!"

Open the door, tell her to put her feet on the setp and stop, which she does, then she turns to me and says, "I have a question." I am stunned. I look at the pilot/DZO to make sure I haven't lost my mind and when his eyes roll, know that I did hear it. I said, "What?" ANd she repeated, "I have a question."

So I bring her back in the plane, secure her legs between mine and close the door and say, "OK... what's your question?" She says, "SO when you tell me to climb all the way out and hang, you want me to do it just like we did in training?" I said, "Yes, just like we did in training." She says, "OK." I ask if there's anymore questions - nope.

We do a racetrack and I ask her again if she's ready to skydive and again get a loud and thunderous, "YES."

Open the door, tell her to put her feet out and stop, check the S/L, point and tell her to climb all the way out and hang, she does, I point at her and say, "GO!" and she launches into this beautiful arch.

We go through debrief and I explain about currency and needing to set an appointment within the next thirty days and she says, "Oh, I just wanted to do it once. Thank you for a great time." And leaves.

[FrenchyDiver 0]

I am not a JM, but when I started jumping, SL was the most common way to do a 1st jump and training. I've seen many times people going down with the plane. And, yes, as others have said already, it takes big balls to say no and deal with the others and moreover with themselves after landing. I don't think she'll be back either. But if anybody sees her, make sure this person tells her that it's all right. There's no shame in saying no, quite the opposite.

JM

Hispas Brothers President
HISPA #2,

[SkySlut 0]

Why did you waste her money and your time if she and you knew that she was "terrified"???

[mikkey 0]

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Why did you waste her money and your time if she and you knew that she was "terrified"???

Now thats not very nice - no personal attacks please Most students are terrified before their first jump - not many freeze on jumnp run (but some do). Most of the time it is impossible to judge who will and who wont. He was sharing an experience with us - no need to insult him... especially if you were not present at the time.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[tobi778 0]

She really wanted to go, and who am I to say "sorry you look too scared". I mean almost everyone look terrified on their first jumps, but they choose to win their fears. In my short experience as an Instructor and a while before, I have found that the once that look really scared the first times often become darn good jumpers.

I tried to explain to her in the plane and later on the ground that it was ok not to jump and that nobody thinks less of her. She is always welcome on my load should she choose to try again.

[TXSkydancer 0]

I had a similar experience with a tandem. She came out in a group and luckily we were in the Super Otter, otherwise it would have been worse. But get her attached and we're heading to the door and I hear a "NO!", this was after asking her if she was ready. I brought her back to the bench and allowed the other tandem instructor and his student to depart. She wanted to ask me a question.. Would she feel like she was falling! I assured her a most definite no and she nodded and said she was ready. I don't think she'll ever jump again, but I wouldn't have forced her for anything. We always tease our passengers on the ground that NO and GO sound a lot a like, but in the air it's a different story.

I did pay my beer for the first refusal, even though she jumped.

Blue Skies and Safe Landings!

[Michele 1]

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She really wanted to go, and who am I to say "sorry you look too scared".

You're right...it's our decision as students.

I was shaking in the door more times than I can count...I was so scared on my first try at level III AFF that I didn't get on the plane (there was a tiny poofy cloud about 15 miles away. I was scared of it). Shoot, I was talking to my former JM, who is now my rigger, who told me "we never knew if you'd come back for the next jump. Most people we know - yes or no. You? You always surprised us when you showed up."

Skydiving is NOT for everyone. But it is up to the individual to make that decision in most cases. I know that had my JMs made the decision for me, I never would've made it out for the first jump, let alone do 70 more.

Jumping has been an amazing and awesome adventure for me. Maybe her amazing and awesome adventure is something else...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[masher 1]

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"we never knew if you'd come back for the next jump. Most people we know - yes or know. You? You always surprised us when you showed up."

I think you suprise all of us on a regular basis Michele.

I did my first 7 (SL) jumps as part of a cadet course to get my para wings. After 3 months, I went back to do more, and haven't stopped since.

We've probably had at least one refusal per cse that we have run (~4 cses). Generally, they get a go-around to see if they can get out the 2nd time. If not, they can shuffle around (3 students and a dispatcher in a C182) and get the next one out. They are then given another chance after the last student has gone. If not, they come down.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[metalslug 36]

I witnessed a quite peculiar case of this last weekend.
An AFF student on his Level 3 froze up on jumprun and declined to jump, landed with the plane.. and he did this 3 times in a row! (I wanna cry when I think of the wasted $$.) I doubt he will return.
What makes it more strange is that his Levels 1 and 2 were not too bad.. he passed them both on 1st attempts and yet seems really intimidated by Level 3.

I did 3 static line jumps before starting AFF and I'm really glad that I did. For reasons I'm not sure of, I had no fear at all on my first static line.. I stepped out onto the strut like I was climbing out of my car and felt like I was on top of the world.
That has been my only totaly fearless exit though, all my jumps since then (2 static line, 3 AFF) have had at least some mild apprehension at the door.

I'm due for AFF Level 4 next.. I'm told that level can be a bit intimidating. Let's hope that my balls are still the size of churchbells when that moment arrives.

[hookitt 1]

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Why did you waste her money and your time if she and you knew that she was "terrified"???

Very interesting train of thought. I take Terrified students up regularily. Some are more terrified than others. Does it really make any sense to jump from a plane?

Our biggest fear (fear of falling) becomes our greatest pleasure. In the beginning, it's just fear. some more controlled than others.

I gotta tell ya though, it's very comical when you take a grip on the harness and start to the door and the student keeps walking to the door saying "no, I'm not jumping. F*** this I'm not going" but with out prompting of any kind, out the door we go.

I've had very few students that I would not take to the plane. I've found ways to get them to tell me they weren't ready, and have also had just plain say, "We're not jumping today" The second one's the toughest.

The MOST terrified student I've ever jumped with was only a few weeks ago... I'll spare ya'll the entire story but it's a good one.

Finally she was safe on the ground, flat on her back, elbows on the ground and hands straight out toggles in hand... parachute trying to drag her. One other guy and I ran over and took the toggles and collapsed the parachute. She was hyperventating very badly. She says this... (for best affect, pause between words and read this with a trembling voice and breathe rapidly)

" I - didn't - Die ---- I'm - alive--- (hyperventilte for a a bit) --- I can't.... believe it.... (voice trembling).... I think -I want - to do--that- again." (nervous laughter and more hyperventalating

We laughed so hard and high fived. Calming her down to calm her down so she could stand up again took a bit of magic. I don't know how to explain that any other way.

My god!!! The absolute terror she felt, certain that death was the out come and it turned out diffent.

She was terrified and I knew it. We jumped any way. She ended up doing a fine job.

tobi778, you did just fine. As an instructor you read the student and do what you can. Don't second guess your self (easier said than done)

Hope that helps.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[XWuffo 0]

The MOST terrified student I've ever jumped with was only a few weeks ago... I'll spare ya'll the entire story but it's a good one.

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Oh come on, tell us the damn story!

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[ScottishJohn 25]

I was terified on my AFF and some of the jumps since , but I was too tight fisted to loose the £££ by refusing at the door.

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If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[SkySlut 0]

I certainly didnt mean for that to be a personal attack, if it came across that way, my apologies...but I do believe that there is something to be said for a student being prepared. Physically and mentally. They tend to go hand in hand with each other. Fear is a normal thing and I want to have a student with fear, it keeps them honest with themselves and a certain amount of fear is a good thing. Too much fear or overstimulation can lead to poor performance on the lesser side or at worst it can lead to an extremely dangerous situation for the student as well as the instructor. I really dont like risking my students life or mine. That is what I was getting at. Not meant as a personal attack, my apologies again, if it came acrorss that way.

[FrenchyDiver 0]

Thanks for having clarified that Slut. I, for sure, have really misread your thoughts and was surprised that a fellow diver would say something like that. Seems I owe you an apology as well on that. If we ever met one day, remind me that your beer is on me that day.
I believe you have a point there. Like I said previously I am not an instructor, I recognize that it sure is difficult to correctly talk a student down, without hurting someone's feelings. But as you said, in our hobby, safety is a must and will always have to come first.

JM

Hispas Brothers President
HISPA #2,

[tobi778 0]

No offence taken :)
I agree, but it is sometimes hard to tell exactly how afraid the student is on the ground. Even harder to anticipate how the student will react once the door opens.

As this student had jumped twice before I did not anticipate this reaction. However when it did happen I acted as I did in order to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. It cost some euros, but no amount of money is high enough to put someone in excess danger.

I'm sure these things will be easier to see at an earlier stage once I get more experience. But as this is my first summer as instructor, I could not see this one coming.

[D22369 0]

Sometimes they just wont go, I havent ever had one not go (yet) we give them three runs, then land with them (dz policy) most people respond well if you exude calm.......*but not all.....

about three years ago I was running the first jump course S/L on friday night, it was a class of eight. Seven men, one woman, from the start of the class, she looked uncomfortable.....as the training progressed through the malfunctions part she started looking very scared, when we took a 30 min break I asked her to stay behind, when all the other students were outside, I asked her her reasons for jumping....."because her b/f paid for it" was the answer.....so she was doing it to please him.
I asked her if she would be more comfortable jumping with someone, (tandem) she said yes, she then asked what would he think of her doing a tandem....I told her to tell him she wanted the freefall....
she had the time of her life.....I video'd the dive, and it was the only time I have been tackled in a hug by a 5' tall hottie........

If she would have been doing a static line, she may have froze, or at the very least not had a positive encounter with this sport......

She has never come back, but there was no feeling of failure....... and I have no doubt that she has wore her video tape out.

This sport isnt for everyone ... unfortunatly.....cause most people will never be able to feel what we take for granted on a regular basis...

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[vonSanta 0]

I find that girls are worse when it comes to teasing men after a no-go.

My brother dinnae go on his second go. Everyone was really supportive and told him 'takes guts to say no'. He's determined to go again.

Anyway, everyone was very supportive - all the *males* that was. The females said things like "what, you didn't JUMP? WTF, you wasted your money, you should have put ME on the load instead" :).

To be fair, he had only one SL jump before this and really was only driving me and my sis to the DZ when there was aspace on the lift and my sis suggested he'd take it - so he wasn't prepared mentally and stuff.

It's easy to forget just how scared one was the first few times. MY Level 1 AFF was very weird. Plane ride - scared shitless. Door opens. 'Oh SHIT, no WAY I am going out there. If I leave the plane, I'll be like...FALLING'. Nowaynowaynowaynoway YES when the 'are ya ready to skydive?' question came. 'Where'd that come from, I am not jumping out of this plane' I consciously thought, somehow overlooking that I was now climbing out on the landing gear and holding on to the wingstrut.

'Uhm, how'd I get here? How do I get back. Why am I checking in and out. I better tell them that I want to get do...what's with this up down motion? I didn't ask my body to do thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii



"Unngh."

"Err.
"WTF"


"WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!"

I was a good deal scared til after I had done the stabilization test. Now there's some nervousness, but it disappates as soon as I am on the way out :)

And YES, the girls were on my case about my fear too. Especially my sis and her 'nice' friends. Guys were cool enough and supportive.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[SkySlut 0]

No problem. Yeah, it can be difficult sometimes to tell, but IMHO, a student typically gives you telltale clues on the ground. It is more difficult for a level 1 student because they may act all macho, but not knowing the students personality previously...you may not know that a macho attitude may be covering up severe terror. The more that you jump with them, the easier it may become to tell that they may or may not jump. Typically, everyone has the same physical effects of stress. sweating, clammy plams, shortness of breath, change in voice, and their overall demeanor may change. It may take some time to pick up on these clues if you arent looking for them. There are several little things that you can do to get a litmus test from a student before you jump without asking them "so how scared are you???"
Unfortunately, at least in the US, they dont teach instructors or coaches for that matter to be better prepared to pick up on these clues that your student is either going to fail the level or going to put themselves and us into a potentially very dangerous situation because of too much stress. I believe that we as instructors should be able to physically and mentally prepare our students. Skydiving is 90% mental and 10% physical.