Tilion 0 #51 August 15, 2003 Just a couple more days for me now and I'm starting my cours(es). See now, we got this combination course, where you start off with 7 SL's and the first AFF jump (@€595). After that you can finish up the AFF for an extra amount of money (@€900). The total amount for the combi and finishing AFF (not including any extra jumps if you progress slowly (but that's always the case)) is a mere €145 more than just an AFF course (which is €1350). I'm figuring (since I can spare an extra 145 Euro's), I'm getting all this extra experience with low jumps/hop 'n pops, not to mention the extra canopy time, easing it into the sport and all other benefits I might enjoy for a very reasonable price. Wouldn't that be the best kind of training, combining it like this? (Also, I did a TJ when I was at the DZ, I just couldn't get myself to wait so long before at least getting a taste (it most definitly rocked by the way! )) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #52 August 15, 2003 >Wouldn't that be the best kind of training, combining it like this? That's how I learned; some 30 odd SL jumps and two AFF jumps (a 4 and a 7.) Worked for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robskydiv 0 #53 August 16, 2003 Quote"Maybe I'm just coloured because about 2 weeks ago we had a 2nd jump SL student get wrapped up in her main at my local DZ, go bounce and die on her way to the hospital." Who's teaching the class? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #54 August 16, 2003 Quote>>Student skydiving will be a hell of a lot safer once the static line system is dead and buried IMHO. >And you came to this opinion in 110 jumps? That's what this place is all about! People with 110 jumps arguing with people with 120 jumps over how to fly a canopy, how to teach AFF, and the future of skydiving. Bill I hope you were not implying I had 120 jumps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lasse 0 #55 August 17, 2003 That depend on what you mean by "hell of a lot safer". Most injuries and incidents are NOT related to the static line system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #56 August 17, 2003 QuoteIn 19 static line jumps. I was not taught to spot once. Look at the plane not the ground. How does that help with spotting? I was taught with the SL method. In my first 20 freefalls I spotted 10-12 of them if not more. I guess it depends on the instructor. QuoteGenerally AFF works out cheaper in the long run anyway so I think the economic arguement for SL is flawed too. AFF requires more "up front" cash. For me, SL made more sense financially because I didn't have large amounts of cash available. I was better able to pay a smaller amount over a longer period of time. I also was not willing to put it onto a credit card. Just another perspective. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivejersey 0 #57 August 18, 2003 QuoteMy SL students spent 1015.00 for 20 jumps with gear rental. AFF at the same DZ just 1-7 was 955.00. So 20 jumps for 1015.00 Or just 7 jumps 955.00 Looks to me like SL is cheaper. Yes but where is that that static line student in terms of skydiving time for around about the same money. Whats their accumulated time? Whats the $ per second freefall of the above figures? Quote they are certainly not as much fun as having an instructor along for the ride. ------------------------------------------------------------ Again your OPINION...I liked SL since it was all on ME to do it...No one held my hand...No one was there to pull for me once I was on freefall. Much more fun for me. Maybe so. But I have spoken to a lot of students, those that have tried both methods and the proof from my experience is that AFF does offer more enjoyment. Well there's the whole freefall bit to start with... are you telling me thats not fun? QuoteIs this the voice of a DZO sugesting the more profitable training program? Or the voice of a guy with experience with different methods of instruction telling a person the best way FOR THEM. It is true I run a club. But it is that just that - a club not a business. I and my friends do not get paid for the work we do despite the considerable number of hours it took to set up and to keep running. hell we even pay for our jumps. We set it up because we wanted to skydive at our home not make money. My arguement is simply not profit motivated. It is safety, enjoyment and based on my and others who learned the same ways personal experiences. QuoteThis I don't agree with...You have any PROOF? Or is it just the OPINION of a guy with 110 jumps? I think SL are just as safe as AFF...Its my opinion, but since I have been jumping 10 years this Sept, and have 2,984 jumps, a SL I and a Tandem I...And have been working with students for 8 of my 9 years....I'll stick to my opinon unless you can PROVE me wrong. As an instructor in all these disciplines can you honestly tell me that there are fewer things that can go wrong on a SL than on an AFF? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #58 August 18, 2003 QuoteYes but where is that that static line student in terms of skydiving time for around about the same money. Whats their accumulated time? Whats the $ per second freefall of the above figures? How about the amount of canopy time for the two? How about the number of exits for the two? Or how about the number of times they got geared up? Gear checks? Plane rides? Pack jobs? Just plain old time spent on the DZ watching and learning? As for freefall time lets see: AFF: 7 Levels 7 X 45= 315 seconds of freefall. SL: 5 SL = 0 1 5 second delay =5 2 10 second delays = 20 3 15 second delays = 45 3 20 second delays = 60 3 35 second delays = 105 3 45 second delays = 135 So SL = 370 seconds of Freefall. So by my math AFF =315 seconds SL= 370 seconds...On this side of the pond 370 is MORE than 315. And for the money they have more jumps, and more time under canopy, and more time at the DZ, and MORE FREEFALL TIME. AFF is faster to teach...but is faster better? QuoteMaybe so. But I have spoken to a lot of students, those that have tried both methods and the proof from my experience is that AFF does offer more enjoyment. Its faster...not better. QuoteAs an instructor in all these disciplines can you honestly tell me that there are fewer things that can go wrong on a SL than on an AFF? There are different things that can go wrong...I would not say less. But you said AFF was SAFER....And that is not true. And I personally think that SL makes better all around students. I base this off of 10 years in the sport and seeing both SL and AFF students react in different situations....Case in point low emergency exits. And you still have yet to PROVE one point. Hell I just showed you AFF is not cheaper, and with SL you get more Freefall. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites richardd 0 #59 August 18, 2003 Im loving the SL program. Allbeit only 5 jumps were static line the rest were increased freefall delays etc. Im on jump 14 and well near cat-8. Just need a friendly weather day or two. I like the idea the responsibility lies with me. This must be a good confidence booster as everything you have achieved has been through your own progression and actions. I probably would appreciate some in flight tuition at some point though! and would like some video footage to impress the ladies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #60 August 18, 2003 Quoteand would like some video footage to impress the ladies With all due respect, you have soo much to learn. Some of us crazy freefliers who video every jump drive the ladies away with our videos. But there are a few freefly friendly ladies who can appreciate the value and entertainment of video. They're just few and far between. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites betzilla 56 #61 August 18, 2003 QuoteIf i HAD to go SL, I wouldnt of started. Or, I wouldnt have been so eager to start. I knew AFF was right for me and passed without any rejumps. AFF was better for ME. But thats me, not everyone else. I think that having more than one learning option opens the sport to more people. A way that is right for one individual is not necissarily right for another. I feel AFF has a higher learning curve and that works for some people, not others. I couldn't agree more. I had the opposite experience. That is to say, I was a SL student, and if I'd started with tandem or AFF, it would have been ahot ride, but too overwhelming (and expensive) for me to continue. SL allowed me to take one small step at a time, and to learn quickly without being overly freaked out. I might add that I was lucky, and learned to jump at a small DZ with immaculate student gear -- i know there are DZs out there with sketchy SL gear, but they're not all like that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #62 August 19, 2003 Ron, This something I agree completly with you on. You hold a I in sl and this guy has a total of 110 jumps. It makes me wonder how he thinks he can make an informed decision. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #63 August 19, 2003 QuoteRon, This something I agree completly with you on. You hold a I in sl and this guy has a total of 110 jumps. It makes me wonder how he thinks he can make an informed decision. Sparky Sparky, We have GOT to stop agreeing on things. I am getting all warm and fuzzy now. Damn! BTW its COMPLETELY (Maybe this will get us back to our relationship.) But I agree. 110 jumps you should still be thinking about not dying. When I made my 100th...I was told by a very good friend that the group now thinks I am gonna pull something before I die...It will not be the right thing, but at least I'll bounce with something pulled. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #64 August 19, 2003 Damn dyslexia!My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites betzilla 56 #65 August 19, 2003 QuoteAnd for the money they have more jumps, and more time under canopy, and more time at the DZ, and MORE FREEFALL TIME. Try: for HALF the money they get all of this. One of the great things about the SL progression is that it's much less expensive, and makes our fine sport accessible to more people that way... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivejersey 0 #66 August 20, 2003 Its only cheaper if you get of the static line system. Which isn't how it works. I haven't met anyone who got of static lines in 6 jumps. This is the theoretical minimum but never seems to work in practice. Maybe thats how it works in the States but UK / France side of things that would be unusal and the norm would be 12-15 static line jumps. Use those jump numbers and then rexamine the costs and tell me whos getting the better deal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #67 August 20, 2003 I did 6 jumps on the rope. 5 is the minimum set by the APF.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivejersey 0 #68 August 20, 2003 In beginning to think this is just a UK / France - or pretty much DZ's I pick kind of problem..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #69 August 20, 2003 I did 5 SL's I have put out MANY students that only took 5."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #70 August 21, 2003 QuoteIts only cheaper if you get of the static line system. Which isn't how it works. I haven't met anyone who got of static lines in 6 jumps. This is the theoretical minimum but never seems to work in practice. I'm an IAD instructor. I've had several students only have to do the required 2 IAD's and 3 practice pulls before moving on to their clear & pull and first freefalls. Students failing an initial IAD level aren't rare, but they aren't that common either. If they do have to make a repeat it usually isn't more than one or two to get their arch or their practice-pull nailed down. If that is truly what is happening in UK/France I would be really interested to see their teaching style / methodology.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikeat10500 12 #71 August 21, 2003 My DZ uses IAD's to prepare students for a free fall program. It would be like doing 3-6 static line jumps followed by AFF. The student must be capable of handling a manta without radio before moving into free fall. We have see some of the better students go old progression (hop n' pop ,delays) but most will enter the free fall program.The total program is extremely flexible.----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #72 August 21, 2003 QuoteIt would be like doing 3-6 static line jumps followed by AFF Sounds like the Canadian PFF....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mjosparky 4 #54 August 16, 2003 Quote>>Student skydiving will be a hell of a lot safer once the static line system is dead and buried IMHO. >And you came to this opinion in 110 jumps? That's what this place is all about! People with 110 jumps arguing with people with 120 jumps over how to fly a canopy, how to teach AFF, and the future of skydiving. Bill I hope you were not implying I had 120 jumps. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lasse 0 #55 August 17, 2003 That depend on what you mean by "hell of a lot safer". Most injuries and incidents are NOT related to the static line system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #56 August 17, 2003 QuoteIn 19 static line jumps. I was not taught to spot once. Look at the plane not the ground. How does that help with spotting? I was taught with the SL method. In my first 20 freefalls I spotted 10-12 of them if not more. I guess it depends on the instructor. QuoteGenerally AFF works out cheaper in the long run anyway so I think the economic arguement for SL is flawed too. AFF requires more "up front" cash. For me, SL made more sense financially because I didn't have large amounts of cash available. I was better able to pay a smaller amount over a longer period of time. I also was not willing to put it onto a credit card. Just another perspective. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #57 August 18, 2003 QuoteMy SL students spent 1015.00 for 20 jumps with gear rental. AFF at the same DZ just 1-7 was 955.00. So 20 jumps for 1015.00 Or just 7 jumps 955.00 Looks to me like SL is cheaper. Yes but where is that that static line student in terms of skydiving time for around about the same money. Whats their accumulated time? Whats the $ per second freefall of the above figures? Quote they are certainly not as much fun as having an instructor along for the ride. ------------------------------------------------------------ Again your OPINION...I liked SL since it was all on ME to do it...No one held my hand...No one was there to pull for me once I was on freefall. Much more fun for me. Maybe so. But I have spoken to a lot of students, those that have tried both methods and the proof from my experience is that AFF does offer more enjoyment. Well there's the whole freefall bit to start with... are you telling me thats not fun? QuoteIs this the voice of a DZO sugesting the more profitable training program? Or the voice of a guy with experience with different methods of instruction telling a person the best way FOR THEM. It is true I run a club. But it is that just that - a club not a business. I and my friends do not get paid for the work we do despite the considerable number of hours it took to set up and to keep running. hell we even pay for our jumps. We set it up because we wanted to skydive at our home not make money. My arguement is simply not profit motivated. It is safety, enjoyment and based on my and others who learned the same ways personal experiences. QuoteThis I don't agree with...You have any PROOF? Or is it just the OPINION of a guy with 110 jumps? I think SL are just as safe as AFF...Its my opinion, but since I have been jumping 10 years this Sept, and have 2,984 jumps, a SL I and a Tandem I...And have been working with students for 8 of my 9 years....I'll stick to my opinon unless you can PROVE me wrong. As an instructor in all these disciplines can you honestly tell me that there are fewer things that can go wrong on a SL than on an AFF? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #58 August 18, 2003 QuoteYes but where is that that static line student in terms of skydiving time for around about the same money. Whats their accumulated time? Whats the $ per second freefall of the above figures? How about the amount of canopy time for the two? How about the number of exits for the two? Or how about the number of times they got geared up? Gear checks? Plane rides? Pack jobs? Just plain old time spent on the DZ watching and learning? As for freefall time lets see: AFF: 7 Levels 7 X 45= 315 seconds of freefall. SL: 5 SL = 0 1 5 second delay =5 2 10 second delays = 20 3 15 second delays = 45 3 20 second delays = 60 3 35 second delays = 105 3 45 second delays = 135 So SL = 370 seconds of Freefall. So by my math AFF =315 seconds SL= 370 seconds...On this side of the pond 370 is MORE than 315. And for the money they have more jumps, and more time under canopy, and more time at the DZ, and MORE FREEFALL TIME. AFF is faster to teach...but is faster better? QuoteMaybe so. But I have spoken to a lot of students, those that have tried both methods and the proof from my experience is that AFF does offer more enjoyment. Its faster...not better. QuoteAs an instructor in all these disciplines can you honestly tell me that there are fewer things that can go wrong on a SL than on an AFF? There are different things that can go wrong...I would not say less. But you said AFF was SAFER....And that is not true. And I personally think that SL makes better all around students. I base this off of 10 years in the sport and seeing both SL and AFF students react in different situations....Case in point low emergency exits. And you still have yet to PROVE one point. Hell I just showed you AFF is not cheaper, and with SL you get more Freefall. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richardd 0 #59 August 18, 2003 Im loving the SL program. Allbeit only 5 jumps were static line the rest were increased freefall delays etc. Im on jump 14 and well near cat-8. Just need a friendly weather day or two. I like the idea the responsibility lies with me. This must be a good confidence booster as everything you have achieved has been through your own progression and actions. I probably would appreciate some in flight tuition at some point though! and would like some video footage to impress the ladies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #60 August 18, 2003 Quoteand would like some video footage to impress the ladies With all due respect, you have soo much to learn. Some of us crazy freefliers who video every jump drive the ladies away with our videos. But there are a few freefly friendly ladies who can appreciate the value and entertainment of video. They're just few and far between. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #61 August 18, 2003 QuoteIf i HAD to go SL, I wouldnt of started. Or, I wouldnt have been so eager to start. I knew AFF was right for me and passed without any rejumps. AFF was better for ME. But thats me, not everyone else. I think that having more than one learning option opens the sport to more people. A way that is right for one individual is not necissarily right for another. I feel AFF has a higher learning curve and that works for some people, not others. I couldn't agree more. I had the opposite experience. That is to say, I was a SL student, and if I'd started with tandem or AFF, it would have been ahot ride, but too overwhelming (and expensive) for me to continue. SL allowed me to take one small step at a time, and to learn quickly without being overly freaked out. I might add that I was lucky, and learned to jump at a small DZ with immaculate student gear -- i know there are DZs out there with sketchy SL gear, but they're not all like that Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #62 August 19, 2003 Ron, This something I agree completly with you on. You hold a I in sl and this guy has a total of 110 jumps. It makes me wonder how he thinks he can make an informed decision. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #63 August 19, 2003 QuoteRon, This something I agree completly with you on. You hold a I in sl and this guy has a total of 110 jumps. It makes me wonder how he thinks he can make an informed decision. Sparky Sparky, We have GOT to stop agreeing on things. I am getting all warm and fuzzy now. Damn! BTW its COMPLETELY (Maybe this will get us back to our relationship.) But I agree. 110 jumps you should still be thinking about not dying. When I made my 100th...I was told by a very good friend that the group now thinks I am gonna pull something before I die...It will not be the right thing, but at least I'll bounce with something pulled. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #64 August 19, 2003 Damn dyslexia!My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #65 August 19, 2003 QuoteAnd for the money they have more jumps, and more time under canopy, and more time at the DZ, and MORE FREEFALL TIME. Try: for HALF the money they get all of this. One of the great things about the SL progression is that it's much less expensive, and makes our fine sport accessible to more people that way... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #66 August 20, 2003 Its only cheaper if you get of the static line system. Which isn't how it works. I haven't met anyone who got of static lines in 6 jumps. This is the theoretical minimum but never seems to work in practice. Maybe thats how it works in the States but UK / France side of things that would be unusal and the norm would be 12-15 static line jumps. Use those jump numbers and then rexamine the costs and tell me whos getting the better deal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #67 August 20, 2003 I did 6 jumps on the rope. 5 is the minimum set by the APF.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #68 August 20, 2003 In beginning to think this is just a UK / France - or pretty much DZ's I pick kind of problem..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #69 August 20, 2003 I did 5 SL's I have put out MANY students that only took 5."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #70 August 21, 2003 QuoteIts only cheaper if you get of the static line system. Which isn't how it works. I haven't met anyone who got of static lines in 6 jumps. This is the theoretical minimum but never seems to work in practice. I'm an IAD instructor. I've had several students only have to do the required 2 IAD's and 3 practice pulls before moving on to their clear & pull and first freefalls. Students failing an initial IAD level aren't rare, but they aren't that common either. If they do have to make a repeat it usually isn't more than one or two to get their arch or their practice-pull nailed down. If that is truly what is happening in UK/France I would be really interested to see their teaching style / methodology.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #71 August 21, 2003 My DZ uses IAD's to prepare students for a free fall program. It would be like doing 3-6 static line jumps followed by AFF. The student must be capable of handling a manta without radio before moving into free fall. We have see some of the better students go old progression (hop n' pop ,delays) but most will enter the free fall program.The total program is extremely flexible.----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #72 August 21, 2003 QuoteIt would be like doing 3-6 static line jumps followed by AFF Sounds like the Canadian PFF....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
