Considerations when landing off

[redtwiga 0]

I had a great experience last weekend. I was doing a two way sit fly out of a king air at a DZ I was visiting for the first time. The flaps weren't working so we had kind of high speed exits. Also it was a bit cloudy out, and a bit hazy, so there was some tweakage when it came to jump run.

My friend and I were last out and the groups before us maybe could have taken a little less time on climb out, but no biggie. My friend had a number of jumps at this DZ, I only had four from the day before. Anyway, jump went well, but I looked down and couldn't see the DZ so we broke off at 5k and were both under canopy by 4. I looked all around and couldn't find the dz or any other canopies to follow down.

I looked back and tried to hang out to let my friend get bellow me so she could lead me back. She hung out too, clearly following me. At 1500 feet I decided to figure out where I was going to land. I picked a field away from straight lines (I had been warned about lots of electric fences in the area), away from roads or power lines, without cows, trees or buildings. It was sort of a field/back yard of a church. I couldn't tell the wind direction from the trees or anything so I got ready to PLF.

It may have been down wind but the winds were so slight we both landed fine right next to each other. Turns out we were 2 miles from the DZ, but we got a ride back.

All told it was a really awesome and fun experience. I'm just curious if there's anything else we should have done for safety's sake.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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At 1500 feet I decided to figure out where I was going to land. I picked a field away from straight lines (I had been warned about lots of electric fences in the area), away from roads or power lines, without cows, trees or buildings. It was sort of a field/back yard of a church. I couldn't tell the wind direction from the trees or anything so I got ready to PLF.

You did exactly what you were supposed to do. Good job.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Remster 30]

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At 1500 feet I decided to figure out where I was going to land.

It I hadent spoted the DZ yet, I would have looked for a spot higher up, but then again, maybe the area has lots of outs. Either way, you did well enough to have a good time!

EDIT: never mind, I probably would have just finished collpasing stuff by that point... lol

Remster

[redtwiga 0]

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It I hadent spoted the DZ yet, I would have looked for a spot higher up, but then again, maybe the area has lots of outs. Either way, you did well enough to have a good time!

There were actually lots of outs. I spent until 1500 ft looking for other canopies or the airport but I had my peepers peeled for where I was headed at the same time, keeping my options open.

Because I'm perfect.

[Jimbo 0]

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All told it was a really awesome and fun experience. I'm just curious if there's anything else we should have done for safety's sake.

Stay in the plane?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[redtwiga 0]

Right, I guess I was asking if you've already made the primary "not-take-a-go-around-crappy-spot-but-you're-already-under-canopy" mistake.
Sarcastro.

[BikerBabe 0]

We had a very similar experience jumping at the Ranch in July.

We took the porter up for the first load of the day, so the jump run/spot wasn't set yet. Got out (they told us to trust the pilot), did a nice 4-way, opened looked around, and found the airport...across the river, a couple of miles away!

So three of us landed together in a little field amongst the millions of trees, and started walking.

All in all it was a rather humorous experience, especially with the Porter (now full of the Golden Knights 4-way team) flying above us making sure we were OK. I'm sure those guys were all laughing their asses off at us.

When we got back, they thanked us for being the wind dummies...it sure saved them a lot of time.

Though I think anyone who successfully lands out at the Ranch deserves a medal!

As for what we should have done: probably looked a little more, but since we were a) new to the DZ and b)a little over-amped at jumping out of the porter (the devil's airplane), we decided to trust the pilot.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[lawrocket 3]

I had a similar experience on my fourth student jump. Being last out of the Otter, I went through the dive flow when the instructor pointed right at me at about 6500 feet (I was supposed to wave and pull at 5500). I thought I'd messed up big, and I found myself under good canopy at 5500.

I started controllability when I noticed I was pretty far off. I saw my instructor below barely make the landing area as I traversed. As I approached the runway at about 1500 feet (I had to cross it) I saw the Otter on final and said, "Screw this." I looked below and saw an open area with a windsock and landed there. Possibly my softest landing ever.

The cart got me. I found out the instructor wanted me to pull high to have more time to get back. He said, "You probably could have made it back." I said, "yeah, probably. Probably But I knew I could make it here." At which time he told me he was more impressed that I didn't try to make it back.

It was then that I learned that, though the mistake was made on exiting, the managment of the mistake is what is more important.

Safety is more important. It sounds like you managed it perfectly!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,080]

>We had a very similar experience jumping at the Ranch in July.

Me too.

When I had 50 or so jumps I was doing a 4-way at the Ranch with someone with 100 jumps. This, of course, made him an expert. He spotted the Otter and gave the pilot a 90 right. We then flew for a few minutes. After a minute or two the pilot turned around and asked "where are we going?" That should have been my first clue.

We got out, did a rather bad 4-way, and I opened over a forest. I could see the DZ many miles away. I barely made the edge of a farm, and walked out to the road down a dirt path. I met the angry dog, the irate farmer, the nasty farmer's wife, and had to walk through the traditional muddy puddles.

When I got to the road I started hitchhiking. A car full of giggly girls picked me up. They asked me where I was trying to get to, and I told them Gardiner.

"Oh! That's like, 20 minutes away, do you really want to go that far?" she asked me. (Note - I was only about 5 miles from the DZ but it was 10 miles driving distance.)

Live and learn.

[kallend 2,112]

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I had a great experience last weekend. I was doing a two way sit fly out of a king air at a DZ I was visiting for the first time. The flaps weren't working ...

Aren't flaps on the minimum eqipment list for a King Air?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,080]

Sounds like things worked out OK, but I did want to mention something. I've got a rule that I do one new thing at a time. I recently got a Birdman suit, for example, so for the first 30-40 jumps on it I stuck to familiar airplanes, a familiar rig, the same helmet etc. I will put a few more jumps on it before I start adding the complication of a camera, a smaller canopy etc. This rule has served me well, because it lets me get used to the new thing before I add complications to it that might overload me.

With that in mind it sounds like this incident you described was destined for problems even before you left the plane:

>I was doing a two way sit fly out of a king air at a DZ I was visiting for the first time.

OK, first time at a new DZ. No problem there, as long as you're comfortable sit flying and keeping an eye out below.

>The flaps weren't working so we had kind of high speed exits.

Hmm. One of your first jumps at a new DZ and an exit you aren't used to?

>Also it was a bit cloudy out, and a bit hazy, so there was some tweakage when it came to jump run.

And now poor visibility and a pre-planned poor spot?

>jump went well, but I looked down and couldn't see the DZ . . .

Really poor visibility I guess. Could you see the DZ when you exited? If so did you backslide a lot, or track in some direction?

Any incident is the result of more than one thing going wrong. Often, if you break the chain of problems early enough you can avoid the incident altogether. Sometimes it means waiting on the ground for better conditions; sometimes it means riding the plane back down. But often that can be better than the alternative.

[quade 4]

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"Oh! That's like, 20 minutes away, do you really want to go that far?" she asked me. (Note - I was only about 5 miles from the DZ but it was 10 miles driving distance.)

When "the farmer's daughter" asks if you want to go that far, the obvious thing to do is to tell her you'd like to go all the way.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jsaxton 0]

Well, ya know the old saying:
"Good judgement comes from experiance, and experiance, well that comes from poor judgement".

[diverdriver 6]

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I had a great experience last weekend. I was doing a two way sit fly out of a king air at a DZ I was visiting for the first time. The flaps weren't working ...

Aren't flaps on the minimum eqipment list for a King Air?

You noticed that too huh? I wonder how much runway they were using for takeoff and landing. And isn't using flaps on jumprun like almost required to try and raise the tail just a bit more than it would be without flaps. Dang, that tail is close enough as it is. Why make it worse?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[skytash 0]

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I couldn't tell the wind direction from the trees or anything so I got ready to PLF.

It may have been down wind but the winds were so slight we both landed fine right next to each other.

good to plan for a PLF if you don't know the wind direction. One of the things I do before getting on the plane is judge the wind direction by the sun (mind you if it was hazy, you may not have been able to do so) and remember 'land with the sun around 2 o'clock' or whatever. That way if I land off I have an idea of the wind direction.

Of course that may not always work, winds do change etc etc, and doing a PLF is definitely the right thing to do if in any doubt, but it keeps my mind at rest to know my landing direction even if I can't see a wind sock!

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[dragon2 2]

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I picked a field away from straight lines (I had been warned about lots of electric fences in the area), away from roads or power lines, without cows, trees or buildings.

Well personally I like to land near a road if I can. If I don´t, I´m in for a long walk through fields and farms, and the DZ van might not see me.

I landed off one time doing 2-way CReW. The other guy veered off to the right real early, he wasn´t getting much penetration into the wind, but I thought, I´m still going forward, I might just make it, so I kept flying straight towards the DZ.

He landed way out, near a road, on a field he had landed on a couple times before. The van picked him up real soon.

I landed way closer to the DZ, but was on the wrong side of a small canal without a bridge and had to cross like 3 fields with barbed wire and a farmhouse, and after that I still wasn´t near the road. 2 guys picked me up, the sign said 5 km to Teuge, after all the walking I had already done...

Note to self: if an experienced jumper veers off, follow!

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Erroll 80]

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I had a similar experience on my fourth student jump. Being last out of the Otter, I went through the dive flow when the instructor pointed right at me at about 6500 feet (I was supposed to wave and pull at 5500). I thought I'd messed up big, and I found myself under good canopy at 5500.

I had an almost identical experience doing a coached two-way out of the big Antonov. At around 7k my coach pointed straight at my throw-out. My AFF instincts kicked in and I waved and tossed. We were very far away from the DZ, having exited last with the rats and mice, and what I mistook as a signal to pull was my coach pointing at the DZ. Fortunately from roughly 6k my trusty 210 got me home (just), but the lesson from my coach on this dive was "to find the DZ in freefall". Obviously this is not always possible nor practical, but on low work/low pressure dives on big loads, it could save lots of walking, especially if you are amongst the last out.

Erroll

[bbarnhouse 0]

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One of the things I do before getting on the plane is judge the wind direction by the sun (mind you if it was hazy, you may not have been able to do so) and remember 'land with the sun around 2 o'clock' or whatever. That way if I land off I have an idea of the wind direction.

I may be a bit dense here, but can you tell me how I can possibly gauge the wind direction by looking at the sun?
BB

[LouDiamond 1]

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One of the things I do before getting on the plane is judge the wind direction by the sun (mind you if it was hazy, you may not have been able to do so) and remember 'land with the sun around 2 o'clock' or whatever. That way if I land off I have an idea of the wind direction.

This has to rank up there with the all time worst advice. Could you please elaborate with how the suns position dictates which way the wind is blowing? Does the suns position change if the wind changes while you climb to altitude? Using the sun as a reference point to determine wind direction is as good as flipping a coin, especially on days where the wind is constantly changing direction. You need to re think your method of determining wind direction before you hurt yourself.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[redtwiga 0]

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OK, first time at a new DZ. No problem there, as long as you're comfortable sit flying and keeping an eye out below.

I have lots of sit fly jumps, nothing new there, no sliding or losing heading awareness.

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>The flaps weren't working so we had kind of high speed exits.

Hmm. One of your first jumps at a new DZ and an exit you aren't used to?

5th jump at the DZ. What am I going to do, not exit??

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And now poor visibility and a pre-planned poor spot?

yeah, that sucked.

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Really poor visibility I guess. Could you see the DZ when you exited? If so did you backslide a lot, or track in some direction?

No backsliding, but the DZO's son, 2 groups ahead of us, said the spot would be fine and we wouldn't need a go around. Could I see the DZ when I exited? That assumes I spotted for myself...
Lesson learned.

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Any incident is the result of more than one thing going wrong. Often, if you break the chain of problems early enough you can avoid the incident altogether. Sometimes it means waiting on the ground for better conditions; sometimes it means riding the plane back down. But often that can be better than the alternative.

It got hazy and cloudy on climb to altitude, so I hadn't prepared for that. I am generally a conswrvative jumper and won't go up in sketchy visibility conditions. I appreciate what you're saying though. A convergence of conditions or new elements is definitely something I try to avoid.

[FreeDiver 0]

I was thaught that way too!

Before boarding I turn myself to the direction of the wind (like I would be landing) and record the position of the sun... if I have an out I know how to make a safe final approach and land... I would first try to feel high in the air though; figure out in what direction I fly fastest...

Wind direction doesn't really change that much here during the day..


Is there another way to find out wind direction ??

[LouDiamond 1]

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if I have an out I know how to make a safe final approach and land...

That's great, assuming that the wind is blowing in the same direction some where else off the DZ. We all know that wind always blows in the same direction EVERYWHERE right?(wrong) The wind can be 180 from where it was on the DZ when landing off. Simple structures or tree lines can cause winds to differ drastically from what they might have been on an open field on the DZ.

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Is there another way to find out wind direction ??

One has to look for wind indicators when making an off DZ landing IE: trees, grass in the farmers field, hedges, wheat, corn fields all offer a visual clue as to which way the wind might be blowing. If you still cannot judge from clues on the ground you can do a simple check using your canopy. Note: do this at a safe altitude. Your canopy will run with the wind if you don't make any inputs to it. A simple penetration check will tell you which way the wind is blowing by simply allowing the canopy to fly on it's own and then turn 180 and note the difference(you should be facing into the wind now) In low wind areas this might not be as obvious , in which case you should be able to land safely in any direction. If landing in a field surrounded with large tree lines/structures, try to use the wind indicators in the field as they give a better reading of what the winds on the ground are doing.Your canopy is your friend if you know how to use it properly

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[diverdriver 6]

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I was thaught that way too!

Before boarding I turn myself to the direction of the wind (like I would be landing) and record the position of the sun... if I have an out I know how to make a safe final approach and land... I would first try to feel high in the air though; figure out in what direction I fly fastest...

Wind direction doesn't really change that much here during the day..


Is there another way to find out wind direction ??

He's refering to finding the position in the sky of the sun with relation to facing into the wind. Say the sun should be over your right shoulder when facing the wind. You are so far away from the airport you see no wind indicators so you can give it a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) as to which way you can face to be into the wind. It's not exact but it can be used. I've seen this before and it can be used at places that don't have wind direction changes every 2 minutes like in the desert.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[billvon 3,080]

>Could you please elaborate with how the suns position dictates which way the wind is blowing?

The sun's position (if it is low on the horizon) gives you a heading reference. You can use this to find west (for example) and then turn 90 to land into the prevailing (north) wind. Using indicators on the ground is better, of course. But if your only out is a Home Depot parking lot, it's better to have a general sense of where the wind was blowing from 20 minutes ago than no idea at all.

[Scrumpot 1]

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I would first try to feel high in the air though; figure out in what direction I fly fastest...

This also depends on precisely what you mean by "up high" too. If you are talking "normal" opening altitude (or higher, because you've pulled high due to realizing you were "off"); then that can be deceiving as well, if you do not re-adjust based upon your senses as you continue to descend.

Winds at 3k can be a full 180' OFF what they are at ground level for various reasons. The best way to tell is still visual cue's coming from GROUND LEVEL at the closest spot to your intended landing area, regardless. Tree leaves, smoke from a chimney, dust, crops swaying, etc. I would only use the sun's relative positioning EXCLUSIVELY as a very last-ditch "SWAG" as I think DiverDriver had called it. Chances are, that if you PAY ATTENTION, you can find OTHER more reliable method's than this (again) LAST RESORT possible method.

Blue Skies, and safe landings!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone