How's this for advertising?

[Ron 10]

Well, I would think that a Professor could teach skydiving.

Even if it is not a "performance" sport. The idea of teaching is to relay knowlege to another....

A Professor can do that.

I think that anyone that knows how to teach. Can teach as long as they understand the subject matter. Teaching is teaching.

But the USPA does not see it that way...I have had several buddies of mine that are good jumpers, and professional instructors try to get the BIC waived....USPA said "nope".

Seems stupid, but then you get to...."What qualifies?"

So I understand it....You should be allowed to test out of some of the ratings though....

Oh well

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 643]

I have heard this argument a hundred times and I do not respect any of the people who bring it up because most of them do not know what they are talking about.

Not all prior teaching experience is relevant to teaching skydiving. For example, the last person I want teaching me - how to jump - is the dean of graduate students at some pompous university. Graduate students are assumed to have plenty of prior knowledge related to their curriculum, rarely the case among skydiving students.
Also remember that different age groups require different approaches. For example, if you treated me like an army recruit, er. kindergarten pupil, I would be so offended that few of your words would sink in.

The hidden motive of forcing junior skydiving instructors to attend coach/BIC/Instructor A Courses is to get them all on the same sheet of music.
There are few things more frustrating for a student than to have one instructor teach him method A for barrel rolls, a second instructor teach him method B and a third instructor say "forget everything those idiots told you and do it my way."

The final reason for insisting that all junior instructors attend the same BIC/Coach/Instructor A/call-it-what-you-will course is to gain the respect of you rpeers. It's that old military attitude about "paying your dues." Other instructors will not respect you unless you have jumped through the same hoops as them. No-one else believes that you can do the job unless you have been as much misery as them.

The bottom line is: if you are not willing to jump through the same hoops - as I did - to earn instructor ratings, then don't ask for a job at my DZ.

Finally there is that whole bit about senior instructors sharing their knowledge about what works and what does not work when teaching skydiving. Isn't that what a BIC/coach course is all about?

Rob Warner
CSPA Instructor B/PFF
CSPA Coach 2
3 X tandem instructor
USPA S/L and IAD Instructor
Pompous Master Rigger

[wmw999 2,587]

If a teacher is offended at having to sit in a session on how to teach (I don't know if it's the same now, but the "how to teach" parts used to be a whole lot shorter than the "what to teach" parts), then I'm not really sure I want that person to teach anyway.

Students often know ONE word for something; learning that there are different words for the same things makes learning the things harder sometimes. It's best if instructors all use, as much as possible, those same words. We're not trying to expand their minds here; we're trying to pass on a specific skill.

Wendy W.
(who actually went into labor teaching at an ICC/JCC

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[diverdriver 7]

So, my Flight Instructor's rating for teaching people how to fly airplanes aint good enough to teach skydiving? There's nothing skydiving specific about the BIC. You learn about the fundamentals of instruction. Not how to do the proper teaching of PRCPs.

There should be some way to waive the BIC with prior teaching experience.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Quote

USPA should let you skip it if you have prior teaching exp.

How do you propose to distinguish between those whose teaching experience is one-on-one or small group performance-oriented training, and those whose experience is lecturing (who think telling someone is the same as teaching them)?

Mark

Do you really think a USPA 2-day course can teach someone how to teach? I wonder why it takes years in college?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

I have heard this argument a hundred times and I do not respect any of the people who bring it up because most of them do not know what they are talking about.

Not all prior teaching experience is relevant to teaching skydiving. For example, the last person I want teaching me - how to jump - is the dean of graduate students at some pompous university. Graduate students are assumed to have plenty of prior knowledge related to their curriculum, rarely the case among skydiving students.
Also remember that different age groups require different approaches. For example, if you treated me like an army recruit, er. kindergarten pupil, I would be so offended that few of your words would sink in.

The hidden motive of forcing junior skydiving instructors to attend coach/BIC/Instructor A Courses is to get them all on the same sheet of music.
There are few things more frustrating for a student than to have one instructor teach him method A for barrel rolls, a second instructor teach him method B and a third instructor say "forget everything those idiots told you and do it my way."

The final reason for insisting that all junior instructors attend the same BIC/Coach/Instructor A/call-it-what-you-will course is to gain the respect of you rpeers. It's that old military attitude about "paying your dues." Other instructors will not respect you unless you have jumped through the same hoops as them. No-one else believes that you can do the job unless you have been as much misery as them.

The bottom line is: if you are not willing to jump through the same hoops - as I did - to earn instructor ratings, then don't ask for a job at my DZ.

Finally there is that whole bit about senior instructors sharing their knowledge about what works and what does not work when teaching skydiving. Isn't that what a BIC/coach course is all about?

Rob Warner
CSPA Instructor B/PFF
CSPA Coach 2
3 X tandem instructor
USPA S/L and IAD Instructor
Pompous Master Rigger

And you think a 2-day USPA course on teaching does the job?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

If a teacher is offended at having to sit in a session on how to teach (I don't know if it's the same now, but the "how to teach" parts used to be a whole lot shorter than the "what to teach" parts), then I'm not really sure I want that person to teach anyway.

On the other hand, after a 2-day USPA course on "how to teach", anyone is prepared to teach a FJC.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

There should be some way to waive the BIC with prior teaching experience.

Perhaps. OTOH, having candidates in a rating course who have prior teaching experience can be extremely helpful to other candidates who do not have that experience.

I think there should be far more emphasis and time spent on teaching techniques in all rating courses.

[livendive 8]

Quote

s/l works...for troops, and cargo, but in the 21st century,, we ought to be teaching skydiving,,with an emphasis on the freefall...

Why is that? You don't think teaching safety and canopy control first and then adding in the sensation and challenges of freefall later makes sense for some students?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Ron 10]

Well I dont respect people that make me "do what they do just because they did it".

A 2 day course will not teach you how to teach anymore than an A license should let you teach a FJC.

I would rather have an experianced teacher teaching, than the best skydiver in the world who can't explain how to do it.

Quote

The bottom line is: if you are not willing to jump through the same hoops - as I did - to
earn instructor ratings, then don't ask for a job at my DZ.

there is very little danger of me WANTING to work at your DZ if thats the kind of attitude you take.

Quote

Finally there is that whole bit about senior instructors sharing their knowledge about
what works and what does not work when teaching skydiving. Isn't that what a
BIC/coach course is all about?

Ah you took a BIC right???? Very little useful information was there....

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

OTOH, having candidates in a rating course who have prior teaching experience can be extremely helpful to other candidates who do not have that experience.

Why should I have to pay for a course so that I can give my experience to another candidate? That just isn't fair really. But did I do it? Yes. I had to in order to get my Tandem Rating. The BIC course is almost verbatim taken from the Fundamentals of Instrustion (FOI) book put out by the FAA for Certified Flight Instructors. I've already taken that test.

Quote

I think there should be far more emphasis and time spent on teaching techniques in all rating courses.

I can agree with that. For those who have had no teaching background before.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[skybytch 273]

Quote

Why should I have to pay for a course so that I can give my experience to another candidate? That just isn't fair really.

*disclaimer* - I haven't taken a BIC or Coach course; the last rating I got was through the old s/l ICC. Teaching techniques were just one part of a JCC/ICC in the "old" system.

I guess I was lucky; we had people with teaching experience in the courses I took and in the one JCC/ICC I was involoved with putting on. They didn't complain about having to sit through the teaching techniques section or about having to pay for the course; they contributed valuable information to the entire group and said they had actually learned some new information by the end of it.

[riggerrob 643]

Sorry if I offended anyone with my hard line attitude yesterday. I was spreading misery started by someone you probably never met.
The root of my anger was working for four frustrating years with an instructor who flatly refused to teach to DZ or CSPA or USPA standards. For example, just before he got fired, he was teaching IAD first jump courses in 1 hour! Yes, that's right. I said teaching a first jump course in 60 minutes!
The problem was that he was the only guy on the DZ - not even the owner - who believed that one hour was adequete time to teach a first jump course.
The root of his attitude was a high school teacher's degree issued by a university. He argued long (4 years long) and loud that since he held a teaching degree, he should not have to jump through any of CSPA's hoops. After the third time, I tired of his argument.

Now, let's take a fresh look at instructor & coach courses given by USPA/CSPA/CAC/Skydive U. Maybe attending instructor courses can be a pleasant refresher for people who already know how to teach.
I firmly believe in refresher training for all instructors.
And I believe in leading by example. Despite the fact that I have been a jumpmaster for over 20 years, I still sit in on courses every chance I get.

Here is my personal record:
1982 CSPA Instructor A
1986 CSPA Instructor B, Strong & Vector Tandem
1989 CSPA Coach 2
1990 CSPA PFF & Strong tandem re-qual.
1992 Strong tandem re-qual
1993 USPA Instructor
1994 assisted in training some new T/Ms
1995 Racer Tandem
1995 & 1996 assisted with USPA JCC
1999 assisted with USPA BIC & & training new T/Ms
2000 CAC Coach 2 Theory & repeated CSPA Coach 2
2001 repeated PFF
2002 assisted in training new T/Ms & audited CSPA Course Conductor

Can you see a pattern?

I also believe in refresher training for riggers. Despite being a rigger since 1984, this afternoon I am taking off for Jacksonville and my sixth PIA Symposium.
I case anyone accuses me of being a ticket-puncher, during that same period I have jumped with 2200 tandem students, packed a couple thousand reserves, done a few coach dives and lost count of how many S/L and IAD students I have dispatched.

Try thinking of USPA instructor and coaching courses as pleasant refreshers. Go with an open mind. Share your teaching experiences and heaven-forbid, you might even pick up a teachign trick or two!