Sabre 2

[homer 0]

Not sure if this should go in gear and rigging or not I guess I'll find out soon enough. My question is for those of you that jump the Sabre 2 or have jumped it before what do you think. I have read all the reviews and now want more info. I finally got to make a jump on my demo sabre 2 170 and thought it was great. The opening was nice and soft as well as the responsiveness. The 2 stage landing will take some getting used to but all new canopies have that adjustment period.

Thanks KOLLA & PD

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[Gawain 0]

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The 2 stage landing will take some getting used to but all new canopies have that adjustment period.

I am not familiar with this term. What does one mean by a two-stage landing under canopy?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I've got something like 59 jumps on a Sabre 2 since 12-24-02 and I love it. I'm loading it at about 1.25 and fly it here in the higher altitude of Colorado and it's going to be a great canopy for me to learn how to swoop on before I venture into something more challenging like a high performance eliptical canopy.

Now take whatever I say with a grain of salt, but if you're an intermediate canopy pilot like myself who would like to learn how to ultimately fly an eliptical canopy, the Sabre2 is likely the canopy for you.

Just my two cents ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[AggieDave 6]

Its basically the proper way to flair most modern ZP canopies. Its called a 2 stage flair in difference to how F-111 canopies were flaired and how a lot of old instructors would teach how to flair under those HUGE Mantas, etc.

You probably flair that way and just didn't know it was called that now. You flair to the sweet spot on the canopy, which planes you out, slowing down your forward speed, then finish your flair to the ground. On lightly loaded canopies, the 2-stage flair isn't as pronounced since there isn't much forwards speed, its a great thing to learn since it will make a jumpers transition to a higher loaded canopy much easier and much less painful. (Have you ever stabbed the toggles in one motion instead of a normal flair on a ZP canopy? That's why this is being taught now).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I am not familiar with this term. What does one mean by a two-stage landing under canopy?

This is commonly referred to when you slightly pull down the toggles in the first flared stage and is used to level out the canopy (preferably inches off of the ground) in a swoop while you bleed off ground speed. Then just before the canopy is about to loose it's lift (stall) you pull down a little more on the toggles (changing the canopy's angle of attack) once you're ready to step down onto the ground. It's best illustrated when you watch a really good swooper land.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[homer 0]

It means you don't just flair to land like most canopies (at least the ones I have jumped before). When landing you break slightly till the canopy plains out and it will glides some then just before before landing you flair the rest of the way giving you lift and the stoping power. If you flair all at once the canopy will give you to much lift causing you to go up and not down.

I may be wrong by my explanation but this is what was explained to me as well as what I experienced upon landing.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[AndyMan 7]

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Its basically the proper way to flair most modern ZP canopies.

Wrong.

It's a common way to teach new jumpers and students how to manage the more complex flare on a ZP canopy.

A "real and proper" ZP flare has about a hundred stages, not two. It's up to the pilot to fly the canopy all the way to the ground, and a two stage flare does nothing to help this.

Using the full range of the flare is the "proper" way to flare a ZP canopy. The two-stage flare is an introduction to this concept.

_Am

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AggieDave 6]

Alright, so if you're going to get nit-picky, then yes, flairing is much more complex, but in the context of the entirerty of my post, then what I said was right, since I was talking about students.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skymama 37]

I've had my Sabre 2 170 for about 100 jumps now, and I love it! The openings aren't quite as sweet on it as a Spectre 170 that I've jumped, but they aren't that much worse. I've only had what I would consider 1 really hard opening on the Sabre 2. I load it at 1:1, and it's plenty responsive for me. And, once I finally found that sweet spot, I've loooooved the surf that I get on low wind days. Whenever I downsize, it will be to a Sabre 2 again.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[falxori 0]

i have about 30 jumps on mine and so far i'm very happy with it.
its my first canopy, and i feel i can learn how to fly it safely, and still have fun with it.

had a few off heading openings (some with closed end cells) but i mostly blame it on my packing (still testing things).

only downside i can think of, is that its a bit more expensive.
but.... you only live once
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Droopy 0]

I love my saber 2. I started with a 170 and am now jumping a 150. I is a great canopy. I love how it turns and how it lands. It is a great canopy for everyone i have 200 jumps and love it but my dad has 5000 plus jumps and was a formor golden knight he loves his saber 2 as well. ITs a great canopy and if you are looking to buy a 170 i have one with 80 to 100 jumps on it.

www.paracletexp.com

[Rdutch 0]

I consider myself a proficient swooper. And I have about 1200 jumps on stilletto's and velocities.
I love the saber2. If there was no Velocity out there, I would jump a saber2 over a stilletto. I put some jumps on a saber2 107 and a 97 and got excellent swoop's. But I want a little more out of my canopy so I jump a velocity.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[billvon 3,094]

I put about half a dozen jumps on a few Sabre2's. The first jumps were not great - hard openings and consistent right turns after opening. I found out that some of the early Sabre2's had some consistent problems with hard, off-heading openings. They seem to have fixed the problem, though - the last Sabre2 I jumped (a 135) opened nicely and flew very well.

I don't like their landings as much as I like my Safire's landing because the standard PD flare ends too early. I can slow down my Safire 119 a bit more than I could slow down the Sabre 135; there's a little more bottom end flare range on the Safire. On the PD, once you get the toggles to about shoulder level, that's it.

[skymama 37]

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I found out that some of the early Sabre2's had some consistent problems with hard, off-heading openings. They seem to have fixed the problem, though

This is true, and I had one of those canopies that had that problem. Finally after I put about 30 jumps on it, I sent it in and they tested it and ultimately relined it. Mine was manufactured in Nov 2001. I haven't had that problem since it was relined.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Rdutch 0]

I don't like their landings as much as I like my Safire's landing because the standard PD flare ends too early. I can slow down my Safire 119 a bit more than I could slow down the Sabre 135; there's a little more bottom end flare range on the Safire. On the PD, once you get the toggles to about shoulder level, that's it.

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Im not saying you are wrong or right, but I never have to Run out my landing's on the Saber2 the stilletto, or My Velocity. I also watch Pd test jumpers all day and they land their canopies great.
Maybe you land your safire with it slowing down a lot more, because that is the canopy you jump all the time. Canopies are all different, and do need to be dialed in to perfect them. I jumped a Safire myself and I found just the same conclusion on it, I didn't like it at all, but I only put about 15 jumps on it. Apples and Oranges.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

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[Kris 0]

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Wrong.

It's a common way to teach new jumpers and students how to manage the more complex flare on a ZP canopy.

A "real and proper" ZP flare has about a hundred stages, not two. It's up to the pilot to fly the canopy all the way to the ground, and a two stage flare does nothing to help this.

Using the full range of the flare is the "proper" way to flare a ZP canopy. The two-stage flare is an introduction to this concept.

We definitely see eye-to-eye on this one, Andy. If one of my students mentions the phrase "two-stage flare" I cringe, then correct them.

The phrase I use is "dynamic flare" because it is a flare that is constantly changing based on need. It also helps them to start thinking about actually feeling their canopy instead of just flying it.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[homer 0]

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We definitely see eye-to-eye on this one, Andy. If one of my students mentions the phrase "two-stage flare" I cringe, then correct them.

The phrase I use is "dynamic flare" because it is a flare that is constantly changing based on need. It also helps them to start thinking about actually feeling their canopy instead of just flying it.

Then please explain the proper flair to me. I have only 1 jump with this canopy so please teach my how to do it right.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[weid14 0]

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We definitely see eye-to-eye on this one, Andy. If one of my students mentions the phrase "two-stage flare" I cringe, then correct them.

The phrase I use is "dynamic flare" because it is a flare that is constantly changing based on need. It also helps them to start thinking about actually feeling their canopy instead of just flying it.

Then please explain the proper flair to me. I have only 1 jump with this canopy so please teach my how to do it right.

I think it's been explained above somewhere, but basically, you apply enough toggle to stop vertical descent.... now you are moving horizontally across the ground. keep applying toggle to keep you there. when you're going slow enough, finish the flare out and if you do it right one maybe two steps is all that's necessary. the trick is to keep flying your canopy and not touch down to early. I've watched a lot of pilots stop their flair halfway, and run like a sprinter at the end. there is no need for that if you do it correctly.

[billvon 3,094]

>Im not saying you are wrong or right, but I never have to Run out my landing's
> on the Saber2 the stilletto, or My Velocity.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't think the Sabre2, Stiletto etc don't flare well. Their flare is just different; it stops sooner than the Safire's flare. Some people like that, some don't. Lots of people have no problem landing either one in no winds. As usual it depends on wing loading, planform etc.

[homer 0]

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I've watched a lot of pilots stop their flair halfway, and run like a sprinter at the end. there is no need for that if you do it correctly.

Sounds like my landing only because it had just rained the grass was wet and I did a 1 knee slide for about 15 feet.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[weid14 0]

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I've watched a lot of pilots stop their flair halfway, and run like a sprinter at the end. there is no need for that if you do it correctly.

Sounds like my landing only because it had just rained the grass was wet and I did a 1 knee slide for about 15 feet.

those can be fun too!

[billvon 3,094]

>Then please explain the proper flair to me. I have only 1 jump with this canopy
> so please teach my how to do it right.

First make sure you don't stop flying until the canopy collapses. The most common mistake at your level is to "stick your hand out to break your fall" during the flare; this of course turns your canopy in that direction. This is why some people think a sudden side gust seems to always come along at the last second during their flare.

Second, start working on using your toggles to stop your descent, rather than just flaring all at once. The 'two stage flare' people talk about isn't really two positions you flare in, rather it refers (or should refer) to the two segments of landing:

-first you use just enough toggle to stop your descent and fly along 6 inches or less above the ground

-next you bring the toggles down to maintain that 6 inches, making corrections left/right the whole time.

The picture you should see is like coming off an escalator; a descent that stops at the end and turns into forward motion. Gradually you bleed off your speed. This takes less than a second with a larger canopy, but can take 3-4 seconds on smaller, faster canopies.

The final step is the end of the flare. This depends on the canopy. The Sabre2's flare ends about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the flare, so after this point, pulling the toggles down the rest of the way won't do much but increase your drag. By that point your feet should be on the ground, and you should either be walking, running or sliding (sliding is a more advanced technique.) Finishing the flare helps by slowing you down a bit more before the canopy 'gives up' even if your feet are on the ground at that point.

[homer 0]

Thanks for the tips BILL.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[homer 0]

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(I think you jump at Kapow, if so, watch Andy and Luke, they don't stop flying their canopies when they start to slide, they finish out the flare)

No, I don't jump at Kapowsin but I have been meaning to get there ones of these days. I jump at Vista Skydiving in Kennewick and Richland Skysports in Richland (both in Tri- Cities) about 3 hours away in SE of state.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[PhillyKev 0]

Love my Sabre2. Fun to fly and lands great. Get some off heading openings on occasion, but I bought mine after they had supposedly fixed them, so I'm guessing it's just a little less tolerant of poor body position.

The description I read that helped me the most with landing was in the series about swooping in Parachutist. Sorry, not sure which one. But the gist of it was...When you begin your flare you swing out slightly in front of the canopy, you should feel that you are slightly ahead of it and you plane out. After that initial tug on the toggles that swings you out, you want to continue providing input so that you stay in that position of being in front of the canopy until you have completed your flair, and thus your landing. Once you feel the swinging out part, you'll know what I'm talkign about. Try it out up high, give it an initial tug like you normally do before landing and then just slowly continue the input to keep you out in front. If you get that down, you're actually flying the canopy during your flair, not just preparing to hit the ground. And because you're still flying you have the ability to make slight adjustments to the right or left if need be to avoid obstacles. And whatever you do, look out, not down.