Ron 10 #51 January 28, 2003 Well this is how I see it... Yes it should be posted.... Even though it is the same old story...It might have a new twist...Hell maybe he lost a toggle, or was trying a rear riser landing, or swooping a gate....Most likley he just flat out screwed up, but I could be wrong. QuoteDo I think this particular incident should be publicized? Yep, I think it should. If for no other reason than if he said at some point "I can handle it ...I'm special" Then hell yes if for no other reason than to show the other guy that thinks HE is special that he is not. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #52 January 28, 2003 Can you tell it's Winter? Tempers are high, people bickering about stupid shit.... sigh.... Oh well... not that there's anyone still in the dark as to who it is, but I'll leave the name out anyway, because it's not all that important. [third-hand information from a friend of a friend] A jumper in Florida this past weekend busted him/herself up pretty good. Several broken bones in the normal bad landing areas - hip & leg. I'm assuming it was under a Xaos 108 - although they had been known to jump a Velocity 90 at some point. They were also known to make "high performance landings" - it's reasonable to assume that's what happened here. See Andy's post above for canopy progression vs. jump numbers and guess at wing loading. [/third-hand information from a friend of a friend] The person involved is also a pilot - a lot of times pilots actually progress better/faster under canopy than non-pilots ... just a personal observation, no facts to back that up. Whoever sold him a Xaos 108 at 180 jumps should be ashamed and/or beaten with a stick. Lessons to be learned - You are not special. When everyone tells you "You shouldn't get that canopy" - don't swear you're different and you'll be careful. Don't say "That guy was stupid, I'm smarter than him" or "My jumpmasters know me, and say I'll be ok" or "I'm a pilot so it's ok if I progress faster than others" etc etc etc .... all that reasoning has been done before, and generally, those people are wrong. edit: QuoteYep, I think it should. If for no other reason than if he said at some point "I can handle it ...I'm special" Then hell yes if for no other reason than to show the other guy that thinks HE is special that he is not. That's spooky - I did not see your post before I composed what's above the "edit:" line. BTW - cross posted into incidents because no one else wanted to piss someone off by posting. Get pissed, I don't care. Yes, I know I'm an ass, tell all your friends.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #53 January 28, 2003 QuoteQuote...particularly if there are no new lessons to be learned from the accident...I have yet to see an accident that was unavoidable.I wasn't referring to an unavoidable accident. I was thinking of an accident we all already know how to avoid.For example, it is common knowledge that throwing an untrained whuffo out of a jet at 40,000 feet with no oxygen, on a VX 69, will create an accident. If this incident occured, would it be necessary to "analyze" it and "learn" from it? Not really, that's a lesson we have all already learned.I've seen equivalent situations several times, in BASE jumping. Is it a bad idea to buy a BASE rig off e-bay, then drive out and find a bridge that might be ok, and chuck yourself off it for your first BASE jump? Yep. Do we need to "analyze" this accident any more? Nope. The lesson is clear, and was already well understood. If there are no legal consequences to be faced, then sure, let's talk about it.But what if the (non-)jumpers family now wants to sue the gear manufacturer (even thought the rig was bought second hand)? Would it be ok for us to refuse to identify the rig, in order to protect the rig manufacturer from a frivolous lawsuit (which, given the size of our manufacturers, might well put them out of business, despite being groundless, and thereby deprive our sport of much needed competition and innovation)?No new lessons to learn. A lot to lose. Cost/benefit analysis suggests to me that non-disclosure might be the best course in this instance.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,113 #54 January 28, 2003 >Geeze, I don't know about that. >I don't see a lot of value in speculation. Analysis, yes. Speculation, > no. Skydivers will never have a complete view of any accident, even ones that are captured on video. The video may show the canopy partially collapse; it will not show smoke trails of the turbulence. In such cases we have to speculate that turbulence caused the partial collapse. Similarly, we will never know the state of mind of the person. A friend of mine died videoing a 15-way; he followed someone during the track. I can only speculate that he wanted to get his opening on video. I will never know for sure, but I don't need to be 100% positive to know that it's a bad idea to change the plan and follow someone on breakoff instead of pulling in the center as planned. Even knowing what I think _probably_ happened can make me a safer skydiver. >For instance, there would be no real value in my speculating that the > Xaos 108 has the same issues and the Nova -- especially without > me being an eyewitness. Certainly no more value than if I were to > speculate that gremlins were on the wing. If there is no evidence for either one, then there's no value. If there is good evidence that the canopy collapsed due to turbulence, then there is value. This evidence might come from one ironclad source, like a video showing a dust devil. It might come from ten sources i.e. eight people who landed before him and felt a rotor, the pilot who felt a wind change on final, and the DZO who knows that there's always a rotor there. But you would never know any of that if you didn't openly discuss it in a forum, whether that forum is the DZO's office, a bonfire or an internet forum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #55 January 28, 2003 Yeah I know about this guy....Spy38W He is a pilot, and he thinks that the USPA should not regulate canopy size like BPA, and a lot of other national groups. I wonder how he will feel when he is off the meds? I wonder if he will think the same way? I wonder why he wants to keep it quiet? I hope he comes on and talks about it...I promise not to call him names. I hope he feels better. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #56 January 28, 2003 Quote Okay, I thought about this some more, and (I'm not sure if it's already mentioned) the only people that I wouldn't want to hear that I did something stupid if I died would be my family. My loss would be hard enough on them without having to hear what a "dumbass" I was. Beyond that, I don't really care what people say about me after I'm gone. Me too. They don't know nothing about dz.com, so I guess I can be slandered with impunity here. When I first got into the sport, a mixture of being a giant moron and some very bad luck combined for two reserve rides in my first 20 jumps. I wrote about it here. After that, there were some perhaps well-meaning, but extremely rude people on the dropzone who said it was just a matter of time before I killed myself and that I needed to get the fuck out of the sport. Most people stuck up for me, though, and today I flatter myself by thinking I'm a relatively heads-up jumper. If you read the stories, note this epilogue: Shortly afterward, my then-dropzone converted all the rigs to BOC, changed all the AADs to Cypres, and added specific instructions on what to do in case of a brake popping on opening to the FJC (I take credit for that one ).Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #57 January 28, 2003 We could probably keep the personal shit out of it, Ron. I'm sure he knows he screwed up. At least wait until he gets better and can respond before you start baking the humble pie for him. Here's wishing for a speedy recovery.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samp76 0 #58 January 28, 2003 We also use the S.T.O.P. at work it works great to prevent incidents and accidents. The whole point of sharing information is so that it does not happened again. I can't help but quote a famous history quote: "Those who are ignorant of the past are doom to repeat it." IMO we do need to share all relevant information on skydiving if it pertains to safety. If you make a stupid mistake there is someone else that is doomed to make it too. We need to try to make the one of the most dangerous and extreme sports the most informed if not the safest.Let go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #59 January 28, 2003 QuoteLike Tom said, if there are legal reasons which to not give full details of an incident, that is more understandable. actually i would think the legal reasons would only keep the names out of the incident. The details should be public knowledge.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #60 January 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteLike Tom said, if there are legal reasons which to not give full details of an incident, that is more understandable.actually i would think the legal reasons would only keep the names out of the incident. The details should be public knowledge.I don't think it would be too hard to pick the names up and add them. Did you notice how long it took for someone to add names to the story about the femur? 28 minutes, I believe.There just aren't enough accidents (especially fatal ones) to make it feasible to hide the names, if you give details. Give me the details of any fatality this year, and I bet I can add the names to it in less than 24 hours. Give me the details of any BASE fatality in the last three years, and I can probably add the names from memory.Recounting details and leaving names out isn't going to hold up very long in a legal proceeding.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #61 January 28, 2003 What personal shit? He wanted to hide..... He did say what I said he wrote. And he is proof that being a pilot does not make you ground proof.... I never said anything mean to or about him... I do wonder what he thinks now.... I do hope he gets better. I also hope he learns, and that someone else learns from him. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,113 #62 January 28, 2003 >We could probably keep the personal shit out of it, Ron. I haven't seen any personal attacks yet. That being said, there is now a bigger stink than normal because of the 'secrecy' surrounding this incident. People break themselves all the time; it's generally not a big deal. When someone wants to keep details of it secret, other skydivers start wondering what's unusual about the incident, I think. Not that there's anything wrong with not telling someone something; everyone has that right. In this case it has increased, rather than decreased, the amount of speculation about the incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #63 January 29, 2003 QuoteIn this case it has increased, rather than decreased, the amount of speculation about the incident. this has been one of the most productive topics in this particular forum in a long time. i think we've recieved enough opinions and ideas to at least come up with an idea for an outline to a "Guide For Incident & Accident Reporting" to be utilized for future incidents of the same nature from repeating themselves. we need to form, and build a consensus for this topic to keep the inevitable from occuring if we don't. we can either police ourselves, or be subjected to some other "safety nazi" coming along at some other agency's behalf because we have been deemed incapable of participating in a sport which is already dangerous without killing and maiming each other. it would go a long way for DZO's & S&TA's to implement such reporting protocol for different types of incidents. in my profession it was imposed upon us, because our objective was more important than being safe. now many drilling contractors implement their own safety programs to protect their employees, because if we cannot work safely, we cannot work. my goal in my sky diving is safety first, fun second, and "Live To Dive Another Day" i have pulled some really ignorant stunts during my time, i'll admit it, but i've learned from each incident, and it was of great importance to have had the luxery of having a couple of great mentors along the way, thanks guys/gals! i hope to get some feedback out of this, as i would be more than willing to be associated with the authorization of just such a self preservation plan. if we don't report our incidents, and accidents in a timely and orderly manner it only intices suspecion and speculation culmanating by making us look idiotic, (mostly at the "whuffo media's" hands) but contrary to popular belief, skydiver's are "smarter than the average bear" and we can prove it. there is no sky dive so important, that we cannot take the time to do it safely. take care, be safe.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #64 January 29, 2003 QuoteI haven't seen any personal attacks yet. No, not personal attacks - already bringing personal opinions into it. At least wait until the poor guy is able to speak for himself before you start in on him. QuoteThat being said, there is now a bigger stink than normal because of the 'secrecy' surrounding this incident. No kidding! I'm still not sure what the big deal is. It would be nice if the people who know him would at least say "Yeah, he's doing fine" - bruised ego or not, he is part of this online community, and it'd be nice to know how he's doing.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #65 January 29, 2003 QuoteI also hope he learns, and that someone else learns from him. I wish people would. I personally have done some incredibly stupid stuff and lived. I cite myself as a bad example for others to learn from and take the heat for it. Here is the thing. Every year, I read the incident summary in Parachutist. Half the people killed were under a perfectly functioning canopy and hammered themselves into the ground. People with too little experience to do high-speed turns and people with tons of experience. Personally, we both know 2 people (300 jumps and 3000 jumps) who did the "Hey, hold my camera, my landing will be cool." I don't think that many people learn because they think "...that guy just didn't do it right" and they know better. Most of the people who have learned seem to have enough metal in them to make a toaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #66 January 29, 2003 QuoteNo, not personal attacks - already bringing personal opinions into it. At least wait until the poor guy is able to speak for himself before you start in on him. Still don't see what your talking about Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #67 January 29, 2003 QuoteStill don't see what your talking about QuoteHe is a pilot, and he thinks that the USPA should not regulate canopy size like BPA, and a lot of other national groups. I wonder how he will feel when he is off the meds? I wonder if he will think the same way? I wonder why he wants to keep it quiet? The whole tone of your post just seemed condescending - asking questions that only he can answer to get some sort of point across. At least wait until he can answer them before you ask. If you weren't meaning it that way, I apologize, that's just how it sounds.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #68 January 29, 2003 No harm...I really do wonder.... It seems in my experience that people realize that they might have made a bad choice AFTER them hammer in. I would just like to know if that is the case here. If so I would like to know if he is going to change his thinking. And If he is going to get a Canopy Nazi number...or not. I had a guy offer to buy me beer for the EMT work I did on him after a bad landing. Since he didn't have a job, or any insurance I said no thanks. He then bent my ear about how he felt he could handle the canopy he had....and how now he does not feel that way....I call it "Sudden Impact Thinking". I would like to know if this guy does the same 180. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
