Incidents, emotions and ethics

[Vallerina 2]

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Their feelings are the most important issue. Not what additional insights you might have.

Really? I thought that safety was #1 priority in skydiving. Not feelings.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[wildblue 7]

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What about a well known dz.com'er, flying a very highly loaded eliptical canopy, with only a few hundred jumps. He breaks his pelvis

And if someone is worried about being embarrassed, and everyone else is just wanting to know what happened so they can learn something - what else do you need besides this? Nothing new... someone saying "I'll be different, I'll be careful" getting into a small, fast canopy well before they're ready. And what do you know?! They busted themselves up. Same old story, different characters. Sadly enough, you could show this story to your friend who is getting ready to buy that Xaos 108 at 200 jumps, and he'll tell you the same thing "No, that guy was stupid. I'll be careful, I'm different, I learn faster than most"

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Vallerina 2]

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Same old story, different characters. Sadly enough, you could show this story to your friend who is getting ready to buy that Xaos 108 at 200 jumps, and he'll tell you the same thing "No, that guy was stupid. I'll be careful, I'm different, I learn faster than most"

No, it's really not the same old story. Pilots in the sport have a better idea of canopy flight than those of us who've never done anything in a plane but sit around and eat peanuts. My guess (I could be totally off) is that a pilot in an incident may also have a better idea of what happened than someone like me who has no deep knowledge of drag, etc.

Adding: Oops, I forgot to mention also....that (it seems...I could be wrong) that since pilots have a better understanding of canopy flight, they feel that they can downsize quicker...maybe this really isn't the case....or maybe they shouldn't downsize so quick.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[happythoughts 0]

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>Make sure you don't do something stupid, and the problem is solved.

Not necessarily. You may do everything right and still die.

I don't think people really understand this. You CAN do everything right and still die.

However, the main theme of this thread is that when presented with information about an incident, people will learn. That doesn't seem to be the norm.

There is a joke about a rednecks last words "Hey, watch this!" Then the second redneck says "He just didn't do it right."

Skydivers say "Hey, I've got 800 jumps, watch my hook turn..." Other skydivers just say, "He didn't do it right." I don't really think people do learn from the incidents.

[Vallerina 2]

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I don't really think people do learn from the incidents.

Even if just one person learns something from it, it's valid to post. It doesn't hurt anything by posting information regarding an incident, but it may help just one person who is willing to read through it.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[ladyskydiver 0]

I agree that if someone can learn from an incident post that it should be posted. But, the issue I have with the incident posts is the people saying "Hey...stupid...." When people post the incident, all of the ones I've seen have said basically that they made a mistake and have learned from it. And they get flamed for their post. With as much flaming on the incident posts as I've seen, why would someone want to post a "I made a mistake and lived to tell about it" post?

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[jceman 1]

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No, Andy is right. Even if it's only one person wanting to keep it quiet, the other people complying are obviously agreeing with that one person.

No, not at all.

Well the line of this thread has already answered the question of who and where if you follow the forums at all.

The only question left is why, the answer to this could perhaps help someone else avoid being in the same situation; I thought that is the reason for airing/discussing incidents in the first place.

How the fork are we going to learn from this incident? Is what we are learning is that some people's feelings are more important than our safety?

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[Vallerina 2]

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With as much flaming on the incident posts as I've seen, why would someone want to post a "I made a mistake and lived to tell about it" post?

I agree that some of the "you dumbass" comments are uncalled for. I also agree that it takes great character to put yourself up for insults on a forum. I'm just not sure why getting insulted by people online is a big deal. If you can't even see 'em, what's it matter so much for?

In reply to Jack:
Funny! I said almost the same thing up above w/feelings vs safety!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[kallend 2,148]

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Non-disclosure of a sprained ankle isn't a big deal and probably won't help save anyone else's life.

Good example. Here's one that's a bit more complicated.

What about a well known dz.com'er, flying a very highly loaded eliptical canopy, with only a few hundred jumps. He breaks his pelvis, and a tight group of people are keeping it a secret so people won't say "I told you so".

Is that appropriate....?

_Am

No, it's not appropriate. By hushing it up the value of the warning is diluted, and others down the road who get the same warning will not take it so seriously as they should.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,588]

This topic is why I sometimes like the "Parachutist" approach to incident reports. I wish they'd do the same kind of reporting on non-fatal incidents.

With names removed, only those close to the subject will remember or know, but everyone can see the results of the analysis. Does this mean that you lose the insight of some people if every single detail is hashed out? Yup. On the other hand, with a succinct, clear analysis, more people will actually read it.

That kind of format in an "incidents" web page, which could be filled out by anyone, would be one possibility. It would be good to have a way to prevent there being duplications, and I have no idea off the top of my head how to do that.

We have the ability to share a completely unrealistic amount of information. If it isn't filtered, it's just too much for many people.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AndyMan 7]

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With names removed, only those close to the subject will remember or know, but everyone can see the results of the analysis. Does this mean that you lose the insight of some people if every single detail is hashed out? Yup. On the other hand, with a succinct, clear analysis, more people will actually read it.

But what if the insight is relevant...?

Like this, from one of his posts:

09 - Maveron 250 

04 - Raider 220 

01 - Sihlouette 210 

02 - Navigator 200 

05 - Triathlon 175 

01 - Tempo 170 

04 - Saber 170 

04 - Spectre 170 

15 - Triathlon 160 

38 - Triathlon 150 

02 - Tempo 150 

04 - Diablo 150 

36 - Cobalt 150 

04 - Cobalt 135 

52 - Heatwave 135 

02 - Crossfire 2 129 

08 - Xaos 21 108 

Ie, under a xaos 21 at 180 jumps....? Exit weight estimated at 200.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[wmw999 2,588]

If we wait until a system is absolutely perfect before doing anything whatsoever, nothing will ever be done.

Do I think canopy progression is a factor in some injuries? Obviously it is. But if there's a fairly emotionless way to report the vast majority of the facts, and some analysis, that's probably better than people not posting anything because they're going to get their chops busted.

Should they be sensitive? People are people. Some find offensive what others don't. But if you spend your time telling them what they should be like, they'll blow you off, and then the message is still lost.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,116]

>It seems it's more important not to hurt someones feelings when they screw-up.

I completely disagree here. Learning takes precedence over feeling preservation.

>You should never try to tell them what they did wrong because they
>already know it.

Not in a great many cases. I know several people who hurt themselves because they were jumping a canopy they couldn't handle. Did they conclude that they should therefore upsize? No. One concluded that there were too many people in the landing area, and the idiots didn't get out of the way. Another concluded there was a 'sudden side gust.' They kept jumping and didn't learn a thing. One will never walk normally again after his inevitable accident.

So what's more important for a friend of yours - for him to feel good about himself, or to not be crippled for the rest of his life?

>And never try to point out something they did wrong which they may
>not have considered because after all unless you know them and
> have jumped with them, you have no right to judge. Their feelings
> are the most important issue. Not what additional insights you might
> have.

Now this is starting to sound like a troll!

[wildblue 7]

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Now this is starting to sound like a troll!

Yes Bill.... pull out your "Sarcasm-o-meter" on that post, and it's likely to go off the scale.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Gravitymaster 0]

Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

[quade 4]

Ok, I'm just catching up on all of this now and I think I see what's going on.

I think this is a case where we can respect the wishes of the parties involved for at least a short time. I see no harm in informing people of the basics; whacked in, broken bones, canopy, wing loading and experience levels, but going beyond that and calling him names or speculating as to precisely what happened really isn't called for.

When it becomes clear that he'll be able to live his life normally, then maybe we can get him to reveal some details.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Vallerina 2]

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but going beyond that and calling him names or speculating as to precisely what happened really isn't called for.

I don't think anyone was wanting that. If there are unique points in an incident, I think it's valid to bring them out.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[winsor 236]

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I was talking to my boyfriend a while back about stupid mistakes and jumping.

"Baby," I said, "If I go in, don't let everyone call me a dumbass all over the dz and on dropzone.com."

He smiled tenderly and said, "If you go in because you were a dumbass, I'm going to call you a dumbass."

I would have made him sleep on the couch that night, but it was his apartment.

We all recognize the value of learning the details of incidents. Every, and I mean every time I read about one, I take something away. In some miniscule way, each time I read about someone else's mistake or problem I hope I lessen the chance of my having the same one.

Do we have a right to incident details? Skydivers are very hungry for them, and want them immediately. I'm not sure what the psychological motivation behind this is. Perhaps it's a sort of talisman against having the same thing happen to one's self. One benefit I see to sharing confirmed information as soon as possible is that it cuts down on the rumors.

I've been skydiving for a couple of years, and the pattern always seems the same -- not just online. Someone hurts himself, and a bunch of people (generally strangers) jump on him for being stupid, rightly or wrongly, and the people who know him defend him voraciously, rightly or wrongly. Feelings get hurt, tempers flare, the "whuffo media" is lambasted, etc. etc.

What's the right way to report and react to incidents? Do we need to know about every single one? Do we have a "right" to the information?

If I do something stupid, I expect people to note "wow, that was stupid." If my actions are terminal, make that "wow, that was fatally stupid."

If you're going to be dumb, you've gotta be tough. As is an autopsy, an incident report is no place to engage in denial for the sake of sensibilities. The truth may or may not set you free, but denial can kill you.

The stakes are high every time you step out the door. Given the choice of hurting someone's feelings or having one more person get injured for lack of information, I'll chalk it up to minor shock therapy.

I am much more concerned about losing more friends than I am about the odd turn of phrase. Also, I'd much rather be with people who can call them as they see them.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[Vallerina 2]

Okay, I thought about this some more, and (I'm not sure if it's already mentioned) the only people that I wouldn't want to hear that I did something stupid if I died would be my family. My loss would be hard enough on them without having to hear what a "dumbass" I was. Beyond that, I don't really care what people say about me after I'm gone.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[billvon 3,116]

>Excuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek.

The reason I took it seriously at first is that I've actually had conversations like that with people - "you're disgusting if you want to talk about what went wrong! He's dead/in the hospital, what more do you want? Have some consideration for your fellow jumpers!" Of course, I saw a lot more value in preventing my fellow jumpers from becoming dead as well than remaining silent out of respect for the dead/injured jumper.

[billvon 3,116]

>I see no harm in informing people of the basics; whacked in, broken
> bones, canopy, wing loading and experience levels, but going
> beyond that and calling him names or speculating as to precisely
> what happened really isn't called for.

Basics - I agree.

Calling him names - no one here has expressed a desire to do that.

Speculating as to precisely what happened - this is absolutely critical! Was the injury due to pure inexperience, due to a flaw in the canopy, due to another jumper's wake or approach? If it's a flaw in the canopy, then that information has to be spread quickly. We will not know for sure, of course, but I'd hate to be part of a 'group silence' that let people continue to jump Novas unknowingly, for example.

And if it's something else - traffic, inexperience, turbulence - that's also good information, although the need is not as immediate.

In any case, I can't see anything wrong with giving out both the basics and the details. Name isn't critical; the skydiving community is small enough so that people close to him already know.

[wmw999 2,588]

I think that number of jumps, combined with canopy progression, would be considered relevant in ANY listing of an accident. Not that everyone would learn from it. But some would.

Do I think this particular incident should be publicized? Well, it might get more comment because it's a DZ.commer; more "you dumbass" comments. And I'd hope that wouldn't dilute the message to people who get defensive.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Hooknswoop 19]

I believe that even minor incidents should be posted. It keeps the realization that incidents do happen at the front of our minds. That in turn helps keep us from getting complacent. If someone posts, "I did XYZ, I know I should have done ABC instead. Learn from my mistake. Replying "Yep, you should have done ABC, you idiot" isn't very productive and adds nothing to the conversation. The first poster already pointed ut that ABC was the correct course of action and the "idiot" part only causes other people to decide to never post a mistake for fear of being harshed upon. Then the value of the incidents forum declines. The point of the first post is to help others avoid the same mistake. The second post does nothing towards that goal.

I recently checked out the APF's newsletters. They report everything. I learned a few things I had never heard of. Specifically there was a report of a tandem drogue "orbiting" above the tandem in drogue-fall. At pull altitude the instructor was unable to pull the drogue release cable because the drogue bridle had twisted down to the 3-ring and cinched the drogue release ripcord (the excess cable is stowed in the drogue bridle on some rigs). The instructor was forced to deploy the reserve past the drogue. He was also unable to pull the cutaway handle which has a third drogue release handle attached to it. So if I ever experience an orbiting drogue, I will wave off the cameraman, if any, and deploy immediately.

If the instructor had had made this report, I may have found my self in the same situation, unable to release the drogue at pull altitude. Since it was reported, I have a chance of avoiding the situation.

The Incidents forum must be a place where we can feel safe to post mistakes without fear of ridicule. How many people read Kevin's post that had never seen or heard of this type of rigging error? Some replied saying they hadn't seen it and the pictures made it clear to them. How many people did Kevin save from a reserve ride? If something happens to him again, will he post the story and pictures? Will he subject himself to ridicule? What does he gain from this? Nothing. What do we loose if people stop posting "lessons learned." Too much in my opinion.

I call on the moderators to exceed their mandate and protect people from anything beyond logical discussion of the incident that has learning value.

Someone has hinted at an injury that the person involved has apparently requested that the incident not be posted here. That is our loss. Why would the person not want their incident posted here? Ego, is one possibility. Fear of being attacked is another. If the reason they do not want their incident made public is the former, then they need to get a hold of their ego. If it is the latter, then we must fix the incidents forum, to remove that fear. What if revealing this incident saves someone from the same fate? We owe it to ourselves to protect each other and arm each other with information. Withholding information that may save someone from injury or death is wrong.

We all make mistakes. The Incidents forum can reduce the amount of mistakes we make as a group, if we use it properly and take advantage of this resource.

Hook

[quade 4]

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Speculating as to precisely what happened - this is absolutely critical!

Geeze, I don't know about that.

I don't see a lot of value in speculation. Analysis, yes. Speculation, no.

For instance, there would be no real value in my speculating that the Xaos 108 has the same issues and the Nova -- especially without me being an eyewitness. Certainly no more value than if I were to speculate that gremlins were on the wing.

There -would- be value in analyzing video of the accident to see if there were similarities to other canopy collapses and accidents.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TomAiello 26]

This is not intended as a stupid one liner. It really is something maybe we ought to think about.

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Their feelings are the most important issue. Not what additional insights you might have.

Really? I thought that safety was #1 priority in skydiving. Not feelings.

"We are not here to be safe. We are here to have fun." - Yuri Kuznetsov
"The reason we jump is to feel feelings. That's it. That's the whole thing." - Scratch Garrison
If the accident analysis destroys the feelings that were the primary motivator for engaging in the activity in the first place, are we defeating the whole purpose of jumping?
While safety is important, it can't be the #1 priority in skydiving, BASE jumping, wake boarding, or even extreme bass fishing. If safety were our number one priority, we'd all be at home, sitting on the couch.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com