Incidents, emotions and ethics

[Jessica 0]

I was talking to my boyfriend a while back about stupid mistakes and jumping.

"Baby," I said, "If I go in, don't let everyone call me a dumbass all over the dz and on dropzone.com."

He smiled tenderly and said, "If you go in because you were a dumbass, I'm going to call you a dumbass."

I would have made him sleep on the couch that night, but it was his apartment.

We all recognize the value of learning the details of incidents. Every, and I mean every time I read about one, I take something away. In some miniscule way, each time I read about someone else's mistake or problem I hope I lessen the chance of my having the same one.

Do we have a right to incident details? Skydivers are very hungry for them, and want them immediately. I'm not sure what the psychological motivation behind this is. Perhaps it's a sort of talisman against having the same thing happen to one's self. One benefit I see to sharing confirmed information as soon as possible is that it cuts down on the rumors.

I've been skydiving for a couple of years, and the pattern always seems the same -- not just online. Someone hurts himself, and a bunch of people (generally strangers) jump on him for being stupid, rightly or wrongly, and the people who know him defend him voraciously, rightly or wrongly. Feelings get hurt, tempers flare, the "whuffo media" is lambasted, etc. etc.

What's the right way to report and react to incidents? Do we need to know about every single one? Do we have a "right" to the information?

Skydiving is for cool people only

[rgoper 0]

i feel we have a right to the information, because it's information we can utilize in prevention of incidents of the same type, from the same cause. in my profession, we review accidents, near misses, we even implement a S.T.O.P. program which is become to be heavily relied upon if anyone (regardless of rank, even "worms" can spot unsafe acts) observes someone doing, or fixing to do something unsafe, the work S.T.O.P.S. right then and there, the action reviewed with the whole drill crew present and training disscussed and implemented. throughout the years we have managed to drop dramitically our incident rates, and cut in half our casualty rate which speaks volumes for incident reporting and review. utilized properly, and in a positive manner, it's a good thing. in my 28 years in my profession, i have never had a serious incident on my watch, my motto is "Safety Is "No Accident" it has served me well.

"it's all about living"
HooknSwoop

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Cornholio 0]

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What's the right way to report and react to incidents? Do we need to know about every single one? Do we have a "right" to the information?

I will preface this with saying that I have only been in this sport for almost a year and 130 jumps....

IMO, I feel that we (skydivers ) are entitled to know about every incident that takes place that involves skydiving. It isn't a "Hey, let's slow down and look at the gnarly traffic accident" type of response. Instead, it's a "hey, what can I learn from this person's unfortunate mistake" or "gosh, bad shit just happens, and what can I do to try and prepare for it so it won't happen to me?"

I think that an informed skydiver is an educated and more responsible skydiver than those that are not informed. I learn from every incident that I read about. I too take something away from it, whether it be adding something to my gear check (which I do quite often) or whether it be something that I look for with myself or other jumpers.

When I first started skydiving, I spent a couple days reviewing the incident reports on skydivefatailities.com ( or whatever it was called a year ago.) True, they freaked the hell out of me since I didn't have a clue as to what a lot of that stuff meant. Of course, that type of information does have a different effect on some people. I showed it to one of my co-workers who did a tandem and he refused to jump again.

The bottom line is that incident reports are a very good way for other skydivers to learn from other's mistakes and to educate themselves and others. Personally, they have helped me tremendously in my short skydiving career.

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[quade 4]

There is a difference between the "right" to know something, the "need to know" something and the "desire" to know something.

Technically, no. You have no "right" to know anything about how somebody meets his untimely death unless it's a case of malfeasance on the part of a manufacturer or operator. If "Bob" died because he didn't rig his equipment correctly or because he made a poor decision, then no, you have no "right" to that information. If somebody other than "Bob" did something that caused "Bob" to die, then, yes, you do. You have the "right" to know about it so that you can avoid that other person or his work.

Do we have a "need to know" if "Bob" mis-rigged his equipment or made a poor decision that caused his death? I'm going to say yes, because it helps us all be more aware and makes it clear that we aren't participating in just another sport, but one that can kill you dead pretty damn fast if things aren't exactly correct. However, since we have no "right" to that information, if it's not forthcoming, we should back off and simply wait for cooler heads to prevail. Eventually, the events will be told.

Why do we have such a huge "desire" to know? Well, my guess is that it's human nature. Probably the invention of language itself was something to the effect of, "Ugh, if you poke mastodon, he step on you. Don't poke mastodon." I believe all storytelling and language is basically this sort of learning on various scales. We, as a species, talk about disasters and we have entire industries devoted to it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 20]

Continuing on this topic... should people cover up incidents just beacuse they don't want the future embarassment of having it widely known they screwed up?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wildblue 7]

Check Kevin's post in the incidents forum if you're confused as to why someone may not post that they screwed up. I think the fact that they post it in the first place, they know they've screwed up - they don't need people telling them over and over that they're a dumbass. But, I guess that's to be expected, if you screw up, there's always going to be people there to make sure you know you screwed up - usually in the worst way possible too.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Jessica 0]

Indeed. I do think in some instances people tend to play the putting-others-down-to-make-themselves-feel-superior game. Many just really don't think they're capable of fucking up. "I don't need an RSL, because I'm not too stupid to pull my handles."

Skydiving is for cool people only

[quade 4]

Hmmm, kinda vague.

Non-disclosure of a sprained ankle isn't a big deal and probably won't help save anyone else's life.

A rigger's mistake discovered at the next repack by another rigger. Maybe that's a personal issue between the riggers and the jumper. Maybe not. Depends on the issue.

A rigger's mistake discovered in the aftermath of an accident? No, that's not something that should be covered up -- by anyone.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rgoper 0]

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Non-disclosure of a sprained ankle isn't a big deal and probably won't help save anyone else's life

Paul:

i hate to dissagree with you here, but if we stop reporting "near misses" minor incidents it can lead to complacency in the reporting procedures. as i was saying in another post the program we institute at work S.T.O.P. requires all incidents, no matter how big or how small to be reported to stop a non reporting habit. so i guess it could be called either way. but one things sure, a sprained ankle could lead to a broken femur.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[quade 4]

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a non reporting habit. so i guess it could be called either way. but one things sure, a sprained ankle could lead to a broken femur.

Non-disclosure is maybe a bit different than a cover up.

I really think it depends on the issue at hand. Are you really going to report every incident where somebody sprains their ankle? Sometimes that happens on a perfectly good landing just by placing a foot incorrectly. There's really nothing to be learned from that because there's really nothing you can do about it.

I had an employee at work break an ankle by stepping off a curb and putting his foot on the ground in a funky way. Not a whole hell of a lot that can be done about it. But yes, it was reported for workman's comp insurance and other legal reasons. But I don't think that's what we're really talking about in this thread.

On the other hand, I really would have liked to have adopted the NTSB 830 definitions of incidents and accidents and adopted -their- reporting requirements for exactly the purposes you are talking about. Generally speaking a sprain wouldn't have been required to be reported.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 20]

So under the FAA type of ratings should a broken leg be reported/discussed? Should a Cypres fore be discussed?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[CrazyThomas 0]

if you fuck up and die, everyone has a right to laugh at you. sorry, that's the way it is.
Maybe it is more motivation not to fuck up.
GOOD.
Make sure you don't do something stupid, and the problem is solved.
if you fuck up, why should we not have the right to laugh at you? You did fuck up after all.
If we laugh at your stupidity, it motivates you not to be stupid. If you choose not to report it, that is your own choice.
Why worry about what people are going to do AFTER the fact? Just make sure that doesn't occur.
I heard this once.....
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

You always have the right NOT TO READ ABOUT IT if you get offended and upset about incident reports.

Better to ask a stupid question, than to remain stupid by not asking....or so I heard.

just a stupid person rambling of course....

Thomas

[billvon 3,120]

>Make sure you don't do something stupid, and the problem is solved.

Not necessarily. You may do everything right and still die. People have this very strong desire after a serious accident or fatality to say "Oh, he was an idiot, and he died. I will survive because I'm not an idiot." Yet in many cases he was doing something no dumber than the people complaining about him.

Sometimes you get hurt or killed when you do something dumb. Sometimes you get hurt or killed even when you do something _right_. Discussing it afterwards can help people decide which category the incident falls into.

[TomAiello 26]

What about ramifications for family and friends? I can think of several fatal accidents in which the full facts have not been disclosed due to either (a) pending legal action, (b) serious problems/accusations between the family and friends and a desire not to fuel them, or (c) a desire to protect the estate of the deceased from potential legal action.
In my mind these are all laudable goals, and might outweight the learning aspects, particularly if there are no new lessons to be learned from the accident. If the cause was an error that everyone was already on the lookout for (mis-routed bridle, tools left on the pack job, or something similar), and the potential consequences of disclosure were huge (family suing the DZ for not having a gear check policy, and getting the only DZ in the state shut down, for example), then I can see arguments for non-disclosure.
I don't have a right to know about other people's mistakes. When they share them with me, they are giving you a gift (which hopefully I will learn from).
In some cases, we may all have a need to know (a previously unheard of malfunction, for example). In that case, saving the lives of others would probably, in my mind, mandate full disclosure.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Samurai136 0]

Although there are plenty of things to learn from other skydivers' mistakes, I think there is plenty more to learn from skydivers who don't make mistakes.

To put it another way, I would rather replicate good/safe skydiving behavior than avoid or learn from someone's mistake. Most mistakes can be summarize under failure to maintain rig, pilot error, failure to follow BSR's, or failure to execute procedures.

IMHO most truely dumb-ass skydivers have been warned of their behavior long before something happens and a bit of humble pie is appropriate if they're alive to eat it.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[rgoper 0]

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particularly if there are no new lessons to be learned from the accident

Tom:

with all due respect, and please recieve this in the spirit it is offered, i have yet to see an accident that was unavoidable. there's always that "first link" in the chain, sometimes so subliminal we can't even see it, but it's always there. you have a point in which our ever litigious society hinders the reporting procedure for other's fears of being sued, but in my opinion life preservation is more important than who's getting sued. in all industries nationwide, 99% of big companies have a 100% accident disclosure program to utilize the raw data to prevent future incidents from the same cause. i would hate to see us "shut down" the reporting system, as i think it's one of the most important tools we can utilize in accident prevention. i think each and every sky diver should be required to attend at least one safety day bi annually and have it documented. if we do not regulate ourselves, it won't be long before regulation will be imposed on us by another entity. all too often, on the ride to altitude, i see sky divers sitting out of order on the jump ship, i make it a point to make sure i know each sky diver's opening altitude, dive flow, etc...you'd be surprised how many sky divers board the jumpship without even knowing each other's plans, mostly between the rw groups, and solo belly, free fliers, etc. the students and tandems are obvious. so, yeah, we have a right to know, after the proper accident investigation is concluded.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[rgoper 0]

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I think there is plenty more to learn from skydivers who don't make mistakes.

this sky diver does not now, and will never exists. "Murphy's Law Is Ever Present" this mindset will cause complacency in a heartbeat. every sky dive, i expect the unexpected.

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To put it another way, I would rather replicate good/safe skydiving behavior than avoid or learn from someone's mistake. Most mistakes can be summarize under failure to maintain rig, pilot error, failure to follow BSR's, or failure to execute procedures.

then why does every goverment agency employ statistics to gather information to create programs for accident prevention? i learn from watching people screw up all the time, i'm not perfect, and i am safe, but i am human.

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IMHO most truely dumb-ass skydivers have been warned of their behavior long before something happens and a bit of humble pie is appropriate if they're alive to eat it.

this is hardly an attitude condusive to accident prevention, we must advise each other, and suggest corrective, positive criticizm in a manner in which not to offend, but teach and correct.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Vallerina 2]

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Continuing on this topic... should people cover up incidents just beacuse they don't want the future embarassment of having it widely known they screwed up?

If the only reason is to protect one's oh-so-important pride, then trying to hide a story so that no one can try to learn from it is selfish.

Like Tom said, if there are legal reasons which to not give full details of an incident, that is more understandable.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Ron 10]

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A rigger's mistake discovered at the next repack by another rigger. Maybe that's a
personal issue between the riggers and the jumper. Maybe not. Depends on the issue.

I disagree here. If a rigger makes a mistake...It should be public. I don't want that rigger packing for me, and I should be allowed that info.


As for the rest of this....Well an incident report is a tool to learn how someone died....It's serious. We should take an FAA approach to accidents...total disclosure. I think they take "accident" a little to far, but they don't cover anything up.

As for cypres fire...yep talk about them....Bad landings yep again talk about them. If they are your friend and they screwed up...talk about it..

One of my best friends fucked up and bounced...I told people "He fucked up...he didn't stop the skydive. I miss him that fucking idiot. What an asshole!" And then I cried like hell at his funeral. But he still messed up....And I called it like I saw it.

For the record it I do something stupid and die....Let me be the first to say (some one cut and paste this to the incident forum from me for me.)

"What an idiot!!! was this guy brain dead? What was he thinking?"

If you, or someone you care about does something stupid...and it can be learned from....sorry for your loss, but let it be known that it was a stupid mistake.

I get real sick off "An AAD would have saved this person"....yep, and in most cases so would have pulling the fucking reserve. It's a persons mind ,not a electric box that is what makes skydiving safe or unsafe.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

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Non-disclosure of a sprained ankle isn't a big deal and probably won't help save anyone else's life.

Good example. Here's one that's a bit more complicated.

What about a well known dz.com'er, flying a very highly loaded eliptical canopy, with only a few hundred jumps. He breaks his pelvis, and a tight group of people are keeping it a secret so people won't say "I told you so".

Is that appropriate....?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Ron 10]

Nope should be talked about.....

But I'm canopy Nazi #3. So you knew I would say that.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wildblue 7]

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and a tight group of people are keeping it a secret so people won't say "I told you so".

Correction - one person is asking all these people to not talk about it. To my knowledge, the group of people "keeping it a secret" think it's rather stupid, but are complying with the person's wishes for various reasons.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Vallerina 2]

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and a tight group of people are keeping it a secret so people won't say "I told you so".

Correction - one person is asking all these people to not talk about it. To my knowledge, the group of people "keeping it a secret" think it's rather stupid, but are complying with the person's wishes for various reasons.

No, Andy is right. Even if it's only one person wanting to keep it quiet, the other people complying are obviously agreeing with that one person. (Unless, of course, there are legal reasons to keep things hush hush like Tom had said.)

Adding in because I'm not going to keep replying:
If people can see that there is a lesson to be learned, why hold back information if they feel that it doesn't hurt and could possibly help by posting?

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[wildblue 7]

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No, Andy is right. Even if it's only one person wanting to keep it quiet, the other people complying are obviously agreeing with that one person.

No, not at all.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Gravitymaster 0]

It seems it's more important not to hurt someones feelings when they screw-up. You should never try to tell them what they did wrong because they already know it. And never try to point out something they did wrong which they may not have considered because after all unless you know them and have jumped with them, you have no right to judge. Their feelings are the most important issue. Not what additional insights you might have.