rec.skydiving vs. dropzone.com Forums

[slotperfect 7]

I found this today on rec.skydiving. I am not a regular there, but do read the posts about once a week because I have found some really good information there before. Sorry to hear that Martin is so unhappy with HH's house, but I guess you can please some of the people some of the time . . . etc etc. To Martin: while I don't agree with your assessment of our forums, I do respect your privilege to publish your opinion. I also support your wish to have rec.skydiving more like it was "back in the day."

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So, I spent my day yesterday over at dropzone.com browsing the forums. This is a little of what I learned!

I learnt that instant gratification is not only expected but is demanded from the newbies to the sport! That a skydiver is now experienced in 30/40 jumps or less! That electronic warning devices, RSL's and CYPRES's are REQUISITE items to skydive! That wearing head protection even for those not quite experienced (less than 30/40 jumps) is really not necessary (unless you need it to mount your camera's on)! That many skydivers don't think
learning to skydive extremely well before donning camera gear has any purpose! That many skydivers think that wearing a camera makes them a
cameramen! That there are 130lb recent graduates "swooping" their 260sqft canopy's! That there are skydivers out there that "know" their friend is going to seriously hurt or kill themselves but don't think it's their place to step up and say or do something! That there are people (with an attitude)
writing "official" skydiving articles with little experience and without even knowing basic terminology! That many new instructors think they can make a full time living from skydiving without "picking up the pace" a little! That some of the threads over there can get quite exciting...but the minute they do some fucker flicks a switch and stops the entertainment...a virtual DZ bonfire it ain't!

However, the thing I found most consistent throughout all the forums is...that many newbie skydivers (and by newbies I mean those that are post CYPRES introduction date) have little idea just how dangerous skydiving is! That those that do have a clue about the danger, are more concerned with more gadgets to make them safer, than they are about training and informing themselves, or learning from others with knowledge to share in order to be safer! That when something happens to 'em because their gadgets don't work as advertised, or they haven't considered or trained for the eventuality they whine about it! AND when someone uses an old style non PC approach
towards teaching them the error of their ways...they blubber about it!

Of course, I also learnt a lot of what I've mentioned above on this forum too over the years (so yesterdays trip was more a review of what I've learnt
in many places in the past, than a completely new learning experience)!

Now if we could get this newsgroup to be around halfway what is is now and halfway to how the forums at dropzone.com are we might have something worth
visiting again, a place where skydivers can learn from straight talking teachers and mentors, a place where crying and whining won't get you sympathy or the switch on the thread flicked and if you stop blubbering and statr listening you may learn something that may save your life and if not
will certainly enrich it!

Waddaya say?


Oh Yeah! I also learnt that if ya don't post on dropzone.com under some funky pseudonym you ain't shit and that the description besides your cool
name doesn't describe your experience and ability but how long you've been posting, sort of like those non air awards people have been dishing out on
this group! ;-)

On the whole I don't think that dropzone.coms forums are so bad but I do think that the posters are overly restrained in many cases because of the
switch flicking threat, which I believes takes something away from a DZ forum (which is why I'd like to see a halfway meeting for this newsgroup). I
personally I don't like the posting or display format but as we know from this group, you can't please all of the people...!

As an online magazine I think Sangiro does a great job with dropzone.com and if recdot didn't exist the forums would be the place to go. Personally
though I'd prefer to have ALL skydivers with something to say, an occasional joke to share and the ability to bust balls in moderation all hanging out in one forum!

Yeah, I know...dream on!

BO
SS

Martin Evans

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[quade 4]

It's important to not worry too much about what other people think.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[slotperfect 7]

I agree completely, just wanted everyone here that doesn't frequent recdot to know about that particular post since it was so long and detailed.

Arrive Safely

John

[skyboyblue 0]

i used to lurk rec.skydiving, and I noticed a LOT more bikering over there.

(I also think this thread would get a lot more traffic in talkbalk)

[slotperfect 7]

No doubt more would see it in Tak Back, but stuff also gets lost VERY quickly there. Cheers.

Arrive Safely

John

[f1freak 0]

It's funny, i followed rec dot for a long time and was never really hip on it, dz.com is like an extension of skydiving for me, i mean what really made me fall in love with jumping was the fun that we have, and this place let's me share in the fun with people from around the world....
Let's keep having fun...

HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

[councilman24 37]

I actually agree with a lot of this post. There are a lot of experts here with any where from 0 to 200 jumps here. And a lot of newbies who don't think a 2000 or 2500' opening is normal. (See BSR's for C and D license.) But... this all reflects the state of skydiving now. Having started in 1978 skydivers and skydiving has changed alot during my jumping career. The perception of the sport is different to new skydivers. There are skydivers who cann't imagine making a jump without a Cypres, at 2500', actually having to spot and give the pilot corrections, and who rarely, if ever, pack their own main. Is this good? Probably not to old farts like me. And argueably not good at all. That's why I try to inject some perspective at times. A lot of people would be better served by lurking or asking questions, rather than to be quick with their 20 jump perspective. It would be nice to have something in between these two sites, but I did get a little tired of base jumping dead sheep at rec. Time to step down of my soap box.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Michele 1]

Quote

I also learnt that if ya don't post on dropzone.com under some funky pseudonym you ain't shit

I guess that means that Quade, Billvon, Tom, BillBoothe and more than several others "ain't shit"...LOL...

Since he only spent an afternoon on DZ.com and learned all that, I wonder what he'd learn if he took the time to read through the some quarter million posts...

He makes some good points about posts here, but still, I think he's better served to read and learn and listen...but whatever, to each their own...I lurked over there for a bit, but find this site far more educational, varied, and appropriate to glean information from. The stuff I read on recdot was all about who is an ass, who is in this clique, how such and thus was a bible thumper, who's ex-wife was now sleeping with whom, etc....and as such, it has no value to me as an inexperienced, often scared-shitless jumper...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Jessica 0]

I think this guy is right in spirit, if not in letter. But he has misjudged a lot of "community opinion."

For example:

Quote

That electronic warning devices, RSL's and CYPRES's are REQUISITE items to skydive!

No...we scrap like angry kittens on that one. I don't think this is accurate.

Quote

That many skydivers don't think learning to skydive extremely well before donning camera gear has any purpose!

Now this, I think is true.

Quote

That there are 130lb recent graduates "swooping" their 260sqft canopy's!

I wish this were true. Instead, we have 200 lb recent graduates "swooping" their 150 square foot canopies.

Quote

I also learnt that if ya don't post on dropzone.com under some funky pseudonym you ain't shit

Oh no! Really?

Quote

That there are people (with an attitude) writing "official" skydiving articles with little experience and without even knowing basic terminology!

I don't recall seeing this, at least not in a couple of years. Unless he means within the forums.

In any case, I think while he makes some good points, he missed the one big point, which is, without moderation, forums like this are doomed to deteriorate exactly like rec. Any archival resource value this place has would be gone as soon as you start letting people insult each other's mothers in the gear forum.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

There are a lot of experts here with any where from 0 to 200 jumps here.

Actually, when reading the wreck, I can give it an additional note of caution that others can't. I know quite a few of the "experts" there. Martin may be one of the few real experts. By an expert, I mean both time-in-sport and some success at some aspect of the sport. There are few others.

The loudest voice who preaches to the inexperienced has less than 400 jumps and hasn't been current in years. Most of the self-proclaimed experts are not proclaimed that by anyone other than their immediate circle of friends at their dz.

For me, skydiving is a positive aspect of my life. I seek people out who share this. The wreck is just too negative. I never see positive advice or even a fun attitude towards the sport. I read it for years, but it became bitter and valueless, so I quit.

[slotperfect 7]

Thanks for the insight Bill. I have only been dotting in and out of recdot for about two years, but do find some references there now and again. I like your input on the positive side of life including skydiving. I am happy to share that sentiment with you.

I feel at home here; like a foreigner there. I have only posted there once, to keep folks from buying unairworthy CYPRESs on eBay. I felt I had to do as much as I could to keep unsuspecting buyers from wasting their money.

Arrive Safely

John

[murrays 0]

I haven't read rec.skydiving for at least 6 years. It was one of the best things about the internet in 1993/4 when I first got on-line but the noise level got too high and I left. I started a Canadian mail list in 1994 that is still going ... we've been arguing about the same damn things for 8 years now. I find the moderated forums help people stay on topic and civil to one another. DZ.com is what I had hoped my mail list would be like 8 years ago. I really like it "here". I don't think rec.skydiving has gotten better from Martin's post and from comments posted in response. I don't think Martin's day spent here really gave him the basis for many of his comments.

Murray

[pilotdave 0]

Martin is a nice guy with around 10,000 jumps, but he's also old and whiney. Safety is his #1 priority, and he's very clear on that. He has no problem yelling at tandem instructors, etc, if he thinks they're doing something that isn't as safe as it could be. I've seen him give impromptu lectures on whatever safety item has been pissing him off. But online, he sure complains a lot more than he teaches. Any forum or newsgroup is only as valueable as the information being posted. He's got plenty of information. If he wants rec.skydiving to turn around, how about posting useful information instead of complaining about all these new people invading his sport.

Dave

[sar911 0]

Say what you want, but I would say that 11,440 registered users on dropzone.com says a lot about the site and where people want to be.

[DZBone 0]

Whatever.

It sounds like his bitch was no so much about dz.com, but about the state of skydiver attitude and skydiving discussion on the Web in general, maybe in the sport as a whole. He only spent a day here, he came with preconceptions.

That being said, I must say that Talk Back is becoming too much for me, I think. It feels like Usenet in general has become. I used to follow a few different news groups, but had to stop because the signal-to-noise ratio dropped and the volume increased beyond my mere mortal ability to handle. The same is happening there (Talk Back). There is some great stuff in there, but I can't even remember which threads I was participating in. Things just seem to go streaming past at 200mph.

Once in awhile I feel a little caught up, and find I've blown half the day. I can't deal with that any more.

Sigh.

_________________________________________________
If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound?

[quade 4]

Quote

. . . but I would say that 11,440 registered users on dropzone.com . . .

But how many of those are people that registared and then left after a few days and how many are people with more than one account?

I -think- dropzone.com has a much larger daily user base than rec., but there's no way to prove it by just using the number of registered users.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sar911 0]

Quote

But how many of those are people that registered and then left after a few days and how many are people with more than one account?

It is really irrelevant to me. With 331,209 post and that many users the quantitative fact is that the skydiving community has been served well by Dropzone.com

[seedy 0]

If you have a particular thread you are participating in and want to keep up with it, use the WATCH THREAD feature at the bottom of the page.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[Remster 30]

Quote

With 331,209 post and that many users the quantitative fact is that the skydiving community has been served well by Dropzone.com

Yea... quantity is where its at.....

PS: "Remi" was already taken when I registered my name... so there...

Remster

[Ron 10]

He has a good point.

The Rec used to be a good source of info....now all it seems you can learn is who is doing which sheep.

Way to much noise. I like the moderators here...I think the Rec could use them.

As it is I only look at the Rec for a few things, and I never post there anymore...It is a waste of time unless you care about someone hijacking your thread and somehow always comming back to sheep.

I can't kill file fast enough.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[deaffreeflyer 0]

I had a few bad experiences in rec.skydiving and uk.rec.skydiving. When I asked a question or give my own view, many replies I received was not that great and I wasn't really impressed with answers. Some were slammed in my face and take the pissed out of me . I learnt very little from there and I was being extremely careful what to ask/say in rec.skydiving or uk.rec.skydiving. Time by time I grew out of it and lost interesting in it.

Now I really like here - DZ.com and am very happy cos I learnt so much from you all. Few thing best about you - everyone respect each other's view and we will to discuss and share over various topics etc...

Dropzone.com forums rocks!

[skymama 37]

Quote

I like the moderators here

Thank-you.

I found his moderator complaint to be interesting. There are only 4 rules that we enforce, and they are pretty easy ones to get along with. And one of them, staying topical in the topical forums, seems to me that it is exactly what he would like in a skydiving website. I think he's a little confused in what we actually do around here.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[jlmiracle 7]

I think these people who complain are just jealous. DZ.com is the best place to be and find out information on skydiving.

Without moderators it wouldn't be any different then rec.dot.

If they don't like it here-I really wish they would just stay out. These people that are complaining have yet to contribute anything useful on either rec.dot or dz.com.

I stopped looking at rec.dot because of these same people.

What is the hang up on getting a "title" for the number of posts. I love that part of dz.com

There are so many people on rec.dot I want to go off on, but I'm waiting til I can meet them in person.

Moderators - keep up the good work. We need you.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[seedy 0]

I've been there and one of the things I like best about dz.com is the way info is organized. Over there you have to try to filter through all the mush to find a specific topic. Here, you can quickly look through the various topical forums. I also ended putting so many posters over there in kill files that it became a tedious process.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[wmw999 2,555]

I have friends who like rec. better; I have others who like dz.com better. I think it depends on what you're looking for. The one who likes rec. better and has thought about it said that you get a better interchange because personal attacks are allowed. I can see that; I don't agree, but then he's not making me go to rec. either.

When you limit the inputs, no matter how slightly, you can limit the direction. Which means you can eliminate that one very tiny chance that a discussion about naked dead sheep can lead to something useful. Or boobies, for that matter

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)