mujie96 0 #1 February 11, 2003 How many people jump at DZs that have coaches for new jumpers who have finished AFF but haven't earned an A license yet? I'm taking the coach certification course at the moment as a stepping stone for the one at Skydive University and the instructor happens to be a DZ owner out here for the winter. He's been describing the programs they use at his DZ and they seem like a really fantastic idea but they are also really foreign to me-here after you finish AFF you're kind of left to fend for yourself, to include having to deal with manifestors who don't want you on their aircraft. I'm wondering how many mainland DZs use similar instructional methods. Just keep swimming...just keep swimming.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 February 11, 2003 The coach system is pretty much mandated by the USPA, DZs are *supposed* to be using them.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #3 February 11, 2003 I did an ISP program and did my pre-A coached jumps with instructors. Never really had a problem manifesting. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #4 February 11, 2003 We have a "free" skills program for newbies. Mostly 2 way r-dub stuff, but can improve basic skills to go on to other disciplines. At Skydive Elsinore, we run it every weekend, alternating between Sat/Sun. All that is required is to commit to 4-5 jumps and show up at 0800. No fee for the coach, only your own slot and the will to learn and have fun. This weekend we have a freefly skills camp on both days. Check the events section at http://www.skydiveelsinore.com Just wanted to add that many of the drills are similar to what you might find in SU. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #5 February 11, 2003 There are a lot of DZ's out there that don't use the ISP at all. Its not required by anyone and I know a few DZ's that have no plans of starting it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moodyskydiver 0 #6 February 11, 2003 Skydive Dallas has a nice Skydive University coaching program. When you finish AFF,they ask that you make a minimum of 6 SDU coached jumps before you jump with others (which is what I'd be doing right now if I had the $). The coaches a great and it really helps the learning process. "...just an earthbound misfit, I." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mujie96 0 #7 February 11, 2003 I think ISP is a good concept, the only issue I have with it is the fact that students spend so much money on AFF that coached jumps until they get an A license could be hard to handle, financially. I suppose anyone who wants it bad enough would come up with the money, I know if it was required I would have and maybe this is a good way to find out who really wants to be a skydiver, but damn...jump tickets plus 20 or so dollars plus a coaches jump ticket kind of adds up. I figure you'd probably have to add in equipment rental too, or is that generally included? Just keep swimming...just keep swimming.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #8 February 11, 2003 QuoteI think ISP is a good concept, the only issue I have with it is the fact that students spend so much money on AFF that coached jumps until they get an A license could be hard to handle, financially. Well, the ISP coaching program is actually pretty cheap, especially compared with a setup like Skydive Dallas, where you have to buy a bunch of expensive Skydive U jumps. That's where I went through my student training, and they required three of them. Now they want six. The coaching through the ISP is really just beginning relative work with people who have had some basic teaching instruction and have had their air skills checked off. I think it's largely to prevent four people with eight jumps each from skydiving together. With regular ISP coaching, the cost to the student ranges from free (just pay your own slot) to both slots plus pack job and maybe some change. I wish it had existed when I got off student status. I did my three Skydive U jumps, then was sort of adrift. I was so sucky no one wanted to jump with me. Boo hoo.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #9 February 11, 2003 To get your B licence with the APF, you need to complete the B-rel table. That teaches you how to fly your body. It sound like what Shark was talking about, but a bit more formal. There are 10 stages involved (12 jumps if you pass first time). They go from a straight pin, to 3x 3 point four ways.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #10 February 11, 2003 If I were you, I would go to the SDU coaches program...when you take that program you get the USPA coaches rating as well. Basically you get 2 ratings for 1. I have sat through both programs and the SDU training is WAY more involved than the USPA program (isometric, kinestetic, inner balance drills, skills analysis of video, etc). Right now, Rob Laidlaw has been asked by the USPA to put together a revamped coaches program...I believe that it is based off the canadian program. There could be a basic coach rating and a more advanced coach rating. I believe that they are going to be putting that together this year. He is planning on having a prototype I/E class within the next couple of months and if that goes well then the USPA will adopt it. So, in summary, if you dont think that you are ready for the SDU program...do the USPA thing first, but why waste the money when you can get both ratings in one class? PM me if you have anymore questions...I can talk in more detail about both courses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #11 February 11, 2003 yeah but b- rel dont really teach you to fly with othersyou go throught the table and at the end yo really need to get yourself jumping with others as much as possible. I'm having a hell of a problem getting jumps with other ppl. I have finished mt 1st stage 10 B-rel and want to get some practice b4 doing the next 2 but it's really hard to get ppl to do belly work. The few ppl who would like to try have not started thier brels yet so have to go solo. YOu lot in the States have a much more prgressive system by the sound of it.I want someone to jump with You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #12 February 11, 2003 Correction to my last post. Just spoke to Rob this morning...Right now there is no certification for I/Es to run a coaches course...there is no training for the most part. They are usually appointed AFF Is or I/Es, and for the most part they are taking the program and just winging it. I have sat through some of the coaches courses and there doesnt really seem to be any continuity. Rob is going to have a Coach Course Director program, so the training will be more consistant. They will then be able to give the coaches course. If you take a course through one of the certified course directors, then you will get your USPA coaches rating and that will become a prerequisite for a Level 2 SDU coaches rating. So you could get your USPA rating, then take the SDU follow up course to that or you could just take parts 1 & 2 of the SDU program. I think that this is a good idea for the SDU part, the course throws a lot at you and the skills that you first learn need to be used to keep you sharp...it gives you a little time to sharpen those skills up and build on them later. It should be pretty good stuff. That is my understanding of what is going on at this point, but there could be changes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 February 11, 2003 Unbelievable. If you don't think that the ISP is in effect, then you better recheck your A-license proficiency cards. They mirror the ISP. Think what you want, but if you think any person out there who has only completed an outdated 7-level AFF program and does not yet have a completed A-card is going to be able to travel anywhere but their home DZ and skydive, you are sadly mistaken. In order to get signed off on about 1/3 of the stuff on your A-card, you are required to be supervised by at least a USPA coach. That being said, one must expect that their "student" training is going to encompass more "paid" skydives than just what the dropzone advertises as their "complete AFF package" or whatever SL, tandem, or hybrid system they use. A respectable dropzone school will have systems in place to take the student all the way through the A-license. This, of course, means packing classes, rig maintenance, and all the other little blocks which must be completed prior to obtaining that license. Stamp someones A-card before he or she can pack, spot, undo then reassemble a 3-ring, or replace a closing loop and YOU ARE ONE SORRY MOTHERFUCKER. It is our duty as instructors to run professional and COMPLETE programs. It is also our duty to make sure that a potential student understands the TOTAL cost of obtaining that A-license. Make no mistake: until you have an A-license, you are a student. All that said, yes Jess, you ought to get that USPA Coach rating. If you didn't already have a very-experienced mentor to guide you along the way to capable instruction, then you may want to take that SDU program. I am not a fan of the program, but others really like it. For the most part, though, they come from dropzones with SDU campuses and are sort of forced into taking the course in order to work for the school. Whatever. I come from the old school where we bring up our own and abide by what the USPA tells us. Chuck Blue D-12501 AFF, SL, TM, BM-I Manager, Raeford Parachute Center School Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #14 February 11, 2003 As of a couple of months ago...Deland wasnt using the A license proficiency cards...they were still using a written test. I am not sure whether that changed with the new year...but they are WAY behind anything that the ISP is suggesting. They seem to operate on the 7 jumps and you are done program...sometimes as little as 4 or 5...pretty sad if you ask me... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #15 February 11, 2003 QuoteA respectable dropzone school will have systems in place to take the student all the way through the A-license. This, of course, means packing classes, rig maintenance, and all the other little blocks which must be completed prior to obtaining that license. Stamp someones A-card before he or she can pack, spot, undo then reassemble a 3-ring, or replace a closing loop and YOU ARE ONE SORRY MOTHERFUCKER. It is our duty as instructors to run professional and COMPLETE programs. It is also our duty to make sure that a potential student understands the TOTAL cost of obtaining that A-license. Make no mistake: until you have an A-license, you are a student. I do wonder why a more structured student-to-licensed-skydiver program isn't in place. I can only speak for the DZ where I was trained at, but while there was a structure for my AFF jumps (including some introduction to gear), there was poor structure to my adavancement once I got off of AFF. Now don't get me wrong, I did have to do my additional coached jumps, I did have to jump two (not just one) pack job jumps, but I needed to seek out my own packing instructor (I'm still surprised that it wasn't included as part of the AFF training) and I was licensed before I properly knew much of what I need to know about gear maintenance. Fortunately, I have received additional gear maintenance instruction from Hooknswoop on several occasions, but that was because I was at the right place at the right time the first time when he was giving little mini-gear seminar and recently I received some excellent instruction in his canopy control class. But if I hadn't received this instruction from Hook, I might be still jumping with my three-rings still assembled from the day I purchased my gear and probably wouldn't know much about line shrinkage and other stuff like that. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #16 February 11, 2003 Not real impressed with the quality control of the whole coach program. I've been on three jumps lately with "coaches". Two of them funneled the exit and the third one went low on approach. Maybe the coach title is a misnomer. But then again, "Someone with more jumps than you that went to a course" is just too long a title.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #17 February 11, 2003 Quote Not real impressed with the quality control of the whole coach program. I've been on three jumps lately with "coaches". Two of them funneled the exit and the third one went low on approach. Maybe the coach title is a misnomer. This is a big reason why I'm not running out to obtain the coach rating at this point in my short skydiving career. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 February 11, 2003 Yoo bad you have to have it if you want to even do tandems like what I'm looking at doing.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mustard 0 #19 February 11, 2003 Well, there are good coaches, not so good coaches, and then there are the ones who think they should be coaches, go through the course, and don't bother to apply what they learned. They don't usually (I'm finding, as a Coach Course Director) renew their rating after finding that it really isn't just free slots -- it is work to teach somebody something they don't know already. And if the *coach* doesn't know it, they just make a bad name for others. It doesn't take long for the newbies to figure out which coaches are worth the money and which aren't. *** DJan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #20 February 11, 2003 QuoteNot real impressed with the quality control of the whole coach program. I've been on three jumps lately with "coaches". Two of them funneled the exit and the third one went low on approach. Maybe the coach title is a misnomer. But then again, "Someone with more jumps than you that went to a course" is just too long a title. I guess that also depends on your dropzone. Coaches are there to educate, whether it be on the ground or in the air. Yes, air skills are very important, but even a skydiver with 2000 jumps can funnel an exit without proper presentation. I concur with you on quality control as I've seen a couple of jumpers "slip through the cracks." Well, those coaches will not be working very long, nor will they find an I/E, or S&TA to sign off on their renewal. I see your point, but every dropzone is different. We follow the ISP and require the coach jumps in Cat. G & H. We will also ensure that our students know the material prior to progressing. If you are not satisfied with the instruction you are getting, let the S&TA or DZO know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #21 February 11, 2003 QuoteNot real impressed with the quality control of the whole coach program. I've been on three jumps lately with "coaches". Two of them funneled the exit and the third one went low on approach. Maybe the coach title is a misnomer. But then again, "Someone with more jumps than you that went to a course" is just too long a title. I have videos showing world record holders and Nationals gold medalists funneling exits and blowing approaches.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #22 February 12, 2003 >I'm taking the coach certification course at the moment I wrote a shorter, plain English supplement to the coach part of the ISP which I give our post AFF students. It's several short articles at http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/index.html#learning Some people seem to think it's about teaching them 2 way freefall stuff, but it's really more like 80% canopy control and spotting and packing and how to be a parachutist. Focusing on freefall when they don't know how to see the winds and land without hurting themselves is cart before the horse. I see from your profile that you are jumping in Hawaii. Please say Hi to Constance for me. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #23 February 12, 2003 QuoteI'm having a hell of a problem getting jumps with other ppl. Thats also a function of how big your DZ is, and how many students vs "I'm too good to jump with you " people there are. Not that I can comment first hand here...-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #24 February 12, 2003 Hi Jessie, The student program at my dz takes students all the way to their A license with a JM on each jump. I think the whole program from 2 tandems-A averages about $100.00 per jump from start to finish if paid up front. The students coming out now are much better prepaired for jumping with others than before. I they decide that the want to freefly they get that training as well, not just belly.Conway 1156 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kopelen 0 #25 February 13, 2003 remember that UPSA is not a governing body, so NO they are not mandating anything!!! The can recommend though!Also remember not all DZ are USPA members either Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
