jimmytavino 16 #51 April 1, 2003 But even out of the cessnas from 7,500 and later 10,500, we DID account for drift, and so planned our freefall not to begin over the spot,,, but to finish over the spot,,,, We did allow for "throw", or for headwinds, or in some cases,,, "backsliding"!! and always looked down after we opened to be sure of how we were doing....It all got factored in,,,,, but the improvement has been welcome.. The 21st Century.....rocks..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #52 April 1, 2003 I recall a few jumps, in the old days, when we threw out wind drift indicators. On one of those, I threw it out and none of us saw it again, so we just said the hell with it and jumped. Even wind drift indicators were just too high-tech for us back in those days......Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #53 April 1, 2003 LOL......nice. Yah, I landed out a bunch early in my career when other pilots were flying. I didn't mind. I knew where I was going to land even if it wasn't on the airport. Never seemed to bother me. Just got a longer walk, that's all. Then I got really interested in getting better at it so that when people jumped from my plane they had the best chance of landing on.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,584 #54 April 1, 2003 We always threw WDIs; if nothing else, the students deserved the best possible spot, and they were getting out at (or close to) 3000 feet. We'd call for the uppers at the beginning of the day, and guess from there for the high loads. In New England, with a tight landing area, we did well -- I don't think I ever landed out in Turners Falls when I was there, and I had a round. In Texas, with more outs, we were a little more cavalier -- if you called more than 2 corrections, people would probably begin to poke a little fun at you. But we still threw the WDIs for the students. And Texas had Otters, so it was definitely high loads. I nearly always landed on the DZ in Texas, too (although there were more out landings here) Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #55 April 2, 2003 Quote Actually, I do the math. I'm glad to hear that, it's nice to know that some people really understand what it takes to calculate the winds. Kudos Quote You make distinction between military and civilian jump pilots as being something negative. I meant no negative conotation in the comparrison, only a noted difference.Actually,It isn't a pilot thing, it's a jumpmaster thing. Military HALO jumps are run by the jumpmasters, who in turn have the responsibility of doing the wind calculations and determining the spot(grid coordinates). This information is passed to the pilot so that he is aware of what is going on in his A/C and what people will be doing at particular moments in time and more importantly what the jumpers will be expecting at certain points in the flight. All of this information is covered in the pilots brief before the A/C loads and takes off. The jumpmaster is the sole individual who is responsible for telling people to exit the A/C, pilots usually drive the plane and turn the green light on one minute out to signal that everything is OK to drop. Unlike civilian skydiving, the green light is not an indicator to exit the aircraft, the jumpmaster is the only one that can tell jumpers to exit the A/C in military operations. There are certain occasions where HALO jumpers have to rely on the A/C for exit guideance and the jumpmaster is usually re-calculating the winds on the ride to altitude to ensure that the original spot is still valid and he ensures the navigator has the correct coordinates in his GPS. It is not normally the pilot who gives the command to leave the A/C for HALO and most static line jumps( CARP is the only exception). Now if the jumpmaster calculated the winds wrong or used early wind readings and it changed (which it always does) or his spotting technique is off then you can have some off DZ days. It happens eventually to every jumpmaster. It can be compounded even more by the fact that your in a High performance A/C(C130/141/C17/C5) moving very fast in comparison to say an Otter. Throw combat equipment with O2 into that mix as well as at night and you can see how the margin for error on the jumpmaster part increases which is why spotting is one of many critical parts of military HALO operations. Don't get me wrong, it helps to have a squared away pilot driving"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #56 April 2, 2003 Quote Actually, I do the math. Two math whizzes on the same team - amazing!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #57 April 2, 2003 1. Read this to build your knowledge of the science of spotting: https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/mcwp/view/mcwp3157/21.pdf 2. Learn how to spot at a Cessna DZ. 3. Listen to what Diverdriver (Chris) says regarding GPS, because at the larger turbine DZ's those pilots can give you the right spot 90% of the time. They've flown those DZs so much, that even with varying winds at alititude, they've been exposed to them so many times before and build an internal knowledge database about "Release Point" at their home DZ that they can do it in their sleep. 4. In addition, they are in touch with ATC and know what's in the area more than we do. 5. However, (ref #4) - Always look 360 degress horizontally and 360 degress vertically if you're the first group in the door before the green light comes on to ensure clear airspace below. 6. If you see an unsafe situation... pass it up to the pilot. The pilot is the PIC (Pilot in charge) of the aircraft and all personnel and safety during the airplane ride. If you feel s/he's presenting an UNSAFE situation to exit, stay with the plane and talk to the DZO when you get on the ground. But you better be DAMN right. His/her not making the spot "perfect" for you isn't DAMN right. 7. Many of the pilots have read the document in section 1. There is 1) a top-down (GPS), 2) a bottom-up (D=KAV, etc.) and 3) a SWAG component based on experience to the science of spotting. Those pilots that are well versed in all three are the best one's. 8. And if you really want to learn to spot; go to a Cessna DZ and jump a round canopy 100 times - you'll learn how to spot ...Bigun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #58 April 2, 2003 I made a post below yours from FM 57-220 just to give the original post some information to read to begin the process of learning to spot. And, you must agree that most military pilots have no problems surrendering the A/C to the JM (except CARP jumps). Military pilots respect the line of "Door Closed" = PIC; Door Open = JMIC. Course, the flip side of the coin is both respect each other's formalized training in their areas of responsibility. In the civilian sector, spotting is no longer taught.. about the most they learn is to point at the ground and recognize the A/C is upwind based on surface winds. And they never learn anything else. ...Bigun De Oppresso Liber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #59 April 2, 2003 QuoteI'd have to say that of all the skills out there, spotting would be one of the hardest to teach over the internet Try this:http://dogyks.home.netcom.com/jumprun/jmprun~1.htm Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robskydiv 0 #60 April 2, 2003 Now your'e talking. Crosswind jumpruns would certainly help. Harry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #61 April 2, 2003 I'm not familiar with the term CARP. I didn't go through HALO school, but did jumpmaster a lot of static line jumps in the army (way back when). I recall one night jump, back in the 70's, out of a C-130. It had some classified electronics on board that would home in on a drop point on the drop zone, so we jumped on the green light. We also used this same system for air support. We'd put this electronic device on a hill top and jets would home in on this, then follow a distance and a track to a target. All this is probably considered old hat now days.......Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #62 April 2, 2003 Quote1. Read this to build your knowledge of the science of spotting: https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/mcwp/view/mcwp3157/21.pdf That reference only covers static line jumping, which is done under round canopies. The only portion that remotely applies to freefall operations is the D=KAV formula, which is used during the calculation of winds. It also takes into account that jumpers will only be jumping from High performance aircraft."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #63 April 2, 2003 *** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd have to say that of all the skills out there, spotting would be one of the hardest to teach over the internet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try this:http://dogyks.home.netcom.com/jumprun/jmprun~1.htm Interesting article albeit not for the beginner since it does not really explain things in simple terms. I still found the portion on spotting to be lacking(and thats what this tread is about) but the explanation about seperation and so on was mildly useful. Which again goes with out saying. Teaching spotting over the net is not a prefered method "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #64 April 2, 2003 Heya Lou, would you have a link (or even an FM number i can order the manual if i have to) to an FM that does cover freefall ops? i thought the USMC document was pretty useful and I'd certainly be interested in reading more..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #65 April 3, 2003 QuoteHeya Lou, would you have a link (or even an FM number i can order the manual if i have to) to an FM that does cover freefall ops There is an online library for military members that has a lot of manuals but I;m not sure if it has the ones you want. The ones you'd be interested in are FM 31-19 and USASOC 350-2"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #66 April 3, 2003 cool thanks! i'll go look.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #67 April 3, 2003 QuoteQuote1. Read this to build your knowledge of the science of spotting: https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/mcwp/view/mcwp3157/21.pdf QuoteThat reference only covers static line jumping, which is done under round canopies. The only portion that remotely applies to freefall operations is the D=KAV formula, which is used during the calculation of winds. It also takes into account that jumpers will only be jumping from High performance aircraft. Yeah Lou, it was meant as a focal instrument with the D=KAV in mind. I have used this in teaching spotting where the release point in military ops is equal to where you want your canopy to open in civilian freefall. Its a 101 course. It gets them closer than "Make sure you're upwind of the DZ before climbing out." I've been trying to get my fingers on an FM 31-19 for awhile. If someone gets one, email me for an address, I'll convert it to .pdf and push it out to a website for everyone. Maybe diverdriver will post it also. ...Bigun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TitaniumLegs 8 #68 April 3, 2003 QuoteQuoteUsually the exit order should be freeflyers out first since they get down faster then experienced lower opening belly flyers ABSOLUTELY NOT!! I can't believe we are still preaching this doctrine. Jess isn't really preaching this. What he's been doing a lot lately is putting the freeflyers out first so they get a decent spot and stop landing out and getting him in trouble with the City of Marina. Apparently it's been more of a problem with freeflyers than with RW jumpers. Now one thing that hasn't been discussed is skysurfers - where do you put them? The most common answer is "first". The best answer is "It depends (tm)". Usually, they're out first to give them room and so they don't have to do the plastic army man dance to the door. From a fall rate/drift point of view, it depends on the size of board and what position they will spend the freefall in. - A first timer on a 34" board will spend almost all his time on his belly in the recovery position doing PRCPs. - As a beginner gains skill, they will spend most of the freefall feet- or head-down, possibly at speeds faster than many freeflyers. - On an expert board with a wingsuit (usually a sit suit), standing fall rate can be around RW speed, but can pick up during maneuvers. - An intermediate board, obviously, will be somewhere in between. The other big consideration is deployment altitude. I'm an expert skysurfer, and I usually like to pitch around 4000'. Beginners should dump higher than that, and some experts may take it lower. With all that in consideration, the best place for a surfer may be just before the students. Whether that's possible depends on the aircraft, and possibly on the type of bindings on the board. The Otters at Chicago and Monterey have the floor padding. I find the board slides nicely on it so it's easy to go last. With clicker bindings, you can walk to the door, step on the board (make sure it's locked) and go. Not sure this is great practice, but I've done it. Gotta go... (>o|-< If you don't believe me, ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #69 April 3, 2003 Well, keeping in mind that the last time I flew at Monterey I had trouble getting the 4-way team to climb out on the lights and not take 30 seconds to actually launch. And that is not an exageration. I also remember many of the freefliers not pulling above 2.5 and once open did nothing to ride the wind back to the landing area. So, reversing the exit order to freaks first then the 4-way team with a 30 second climbout that might actually work. I do remember one day we put out 2 tandems first then the flat fliers, then the freaks, then 3 more tandems. It actaully worked and only one pass was made. But that was a very unique circumstance and not something I recommend doing regularly. It took a lot of briefing to make sure everyone knew exactly what and why it was being done. Not something practical. But it did work.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #70 April 5, 2003 Since there is now a size limit on files I can no longer post the PPT class on how to calculate winds to find the "spot". I did however post this info before the limitation so you can access the info at these links. One is the PPT class and the other is a worksheet to do the calculations. http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3213; http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3212 http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3450; Now they should be clicky "It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,584 #71 April 5, 2003 Very impressive and thorough. Very. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites