More what would you do if? (#3)

[ManBird 0]

What would you do if:

1. You showed up to the DZ early, before the pilot. The pilot calls and tells the DZO he is running a little late. A load has formed, geared up and is

waiting on the pilot. The pilot arrives, jumps out of his car goes directly to the airplane, and without a pre-flight, starts it up and tells everyone to

get in?

If I'm not manifested, I'd let it go up without me (and I have in that same situation). Manifested, I'd go anyway. Flying a wingsuit, I usually get out

last, but I can opt to get out first, allowing me easy bail-out access.

2. You know that the pilot bail-out rig being used in the aircraft is out of date?

I'd first notify the pilot. Then, if it's my home DZ and the pilot doesn't take action on the out-of-date rig, I would inform the DZO. If I'm visiting, it

might give me an opinion on the DZ that wouldn't warrant a return visit.

3. Your friend's reserve is out of date and he wants to go make a jump with you, and use his out-of-date rig (you don't have a spare available for him top

use)?

Depends on how out of date it is. 40 days or so overdue really isn't a big deal, safety-wise. It also depends how I find out. If I just notice a tag or

something, I won't say anything. If s/he tells me, then it depends if they agree that "I don't know". Outside that, no, I wouldn't jump with them. Either

way, I'd recommend a repack.

4. One evening you witness the DZO forging a 100-hour inspection in the jump-ship's logbook?

That's just wrong. That's grounds for finding a new DZ and reporting it. That's the lives of others right there.

5. The pilot tells you the DZO has disconnected the tachometer to prevent the meter from showing that the 100-hour inspection is past due?

Same as 4.

6. You become aware that the pilot's medical has expired and they are still flying jumpers?

How expired? If it's recent, it's understandable. If it's been awhile, request a different pilot (if available). If there's only one pilot whose medical

is very expired, then I'm no longer at a DZ. It also depends if the DZO knows or not.

7. The battery in the aircraft is bad (leaking) so the DZO removes it and "jump-starts" the aircraft for each load?

F**k no. I wouldn't set foot on that plane and I'd do what I could to keep everyone else off.

8. The winds pick up in the afternoon and jumping stops. A few people have started drinking, including the pilot. The winds calm in the evening and a few

of your friends want to make a sunset jump, and the pilot agrees to fly?

Same as 7.

9. On jump run, your are in a cloud, nothing but white in every direction, the pilot, turns and yells for you to go?

I've gotten out before and made it back just fine, but I would never do it again. With a wingsuit, I just need to see the DZ, regardless of where it is. If

I don't even have that, then it's a sucker load, f*¢k what the pilot says. Same goes for bad spots and yelling pilots or tandem instructors (when I used to

not wear a wingsuit).

10. Your rigger returns your rig to you, but did not replace your AAD batteries that have expired?

I'd get a repack and have the batteries replaced by someone else, inform the DZO (privately... politics), and never use that rigger again, and inform others

(privately... politics) if the DZO did nothing about it. In reality, I don't have a Cypres, but that mistake would indicate the thoroughness of the rigger

to me.

11. You become aware that the pilot is not calling Air Traffic Approach before dropping jumpers?

I'd talk to the pilot about it first. I'd still jump. The chances of impacting aircraft in freefall or under canopy are extremely slim, and it's something

I could work to avoid by spotting and flying evasively, if needed. Depending on visibility, you can see and react to aircraft from quite a distance. You

REALLY have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

12. You witness your DZO pack a reserve for a local glider pilot without a rigger's ticket or the supervision of a rigger?

Inform the rigger and the glider pilot (if s/he doesn't know).

13. You witness a rigger pack a Seat bailout rig, but does not have a Seat rating, only a Back rating?

Talk to the rigger, then the DZO if needed, and not use that rigger. If the DZO knows, I'm sure I'd still jump at the DZ, but I'd become more suspicious of

its operations and management.

14. You land off, in a tree, 20 feet above the ground?

Suspended... nothing, wait for help. I must say that I'm quite the tree climber. If I'm secure, and I have figured out a route down, I would then cutaway

and climb down. If chopping would drop me, or if I'm not certain about a way down, I'd stay and wait for help. In a tree under a reserve, I'd just wait.

15. At 500ft you initiate a hard toggle turn, and your steering line breaks?

No I didn't. But if for some reason I ever did, I'd do a front riser turn (rotation depends on altitude, traffic, and obstacles), then go to rear-risers.

At 500 ft, I'm most likely set up or on the front risers.

16. During taxi, you notice two jumpers without their seat belts on, or only draped over their leg?

That's me on every jump in a Caravan. Winguit + Caravan = no seat belt. The co-pilot seat works, but only one jumper gets it in a flock. I usually just

get a seatbelt around an arm in the Caravan. If they aren't in wingsuit, I'd just think they're dumb and complacent.

17. During take-off you notice the cameraman in the back of the airplane is not wearing his camera helmet and it isn't secured with a seat belt?

Think he's dumb and complacent.

18. Your friend "pencil-packs" his reserve when he discovers it is out of date on the first day of a big boogie?

Hope no one notices. Hope he doesn't have a reserve ride. Hope he doesn't go in.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[TitaniumLegs 8]

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What would you do if:
10. Your rigger returns your rig to you, but did not replace you AAD batteries that have expired?

I thank him for not wasting my money when the batteries currently in the unit still read 6300+mV.
Of course, this is now a violation of the FARs since the manufacturer requires the battery change. Funny, though, I remember in the early days of CYPRES that many (riggers even) didn't know about the 2-year battery rule, and didn't change them. Never heard of a problem. I'd like to see evidence that a battery over 2 years but still showing over 6000 mV or even 6200-6300 mV caused the unit to fail.

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15. At 500ft you initiate a hard toggle turn, and your steering line breaks?

I give thanks that it didn't break at 15 feet again, and switch to rear risers.

As for the rest, seems like you have an axe to grind. If this is really all at one DZ, then there is quite possibly a problem. Your problem is what to do about it. The "right thing" is to take it to the DZO and if it isn't fixed, take it to the FAA FSDO. Your other options, as other have pointed out, are to walk away or inform the world. People have tried the last approach and after a while it sounds like a broken record.

No matter what you do, you're not going to make any friends with the DZO, pilot or staff there. It would probably not be safe for you to jump there ever again, or at any DZ run by these guys.

I brought up an issue with a DZ (not a safety/FAR/BSR issue, but a business issue) and they retaliated by putting me out on a skyboard in a dangerous location. Yes, I checked the spot and delayed a little when I saw how bad it was, but I could tell the guy doing the spot was about to do something really stupid like push me or grab a handle, and on the board I was in no position to fight the guy off. I won't jump at the DZs owned by these two guys because they clearly can't be trusted.

No, I'm not going to say who or where.

Peter

(>o|-
If you don't believe me, ask me.

[riggerrob 643]

My answer is NO to most of the above questions.
I flatly refuse to fly in any airplane that has not had a pre-flight inspection.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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As for the rest, seems like you have an axe to grind.

Nope, no axe to grind. Mostly hypothetical situations, some based on fact, a couple real. The really interesting answers are the ones that don't reply because they have been in that situation and are a bit ashamed of how they delt with it and don't want to admit it.

The truth is 'most' skydivers will defend their home DZ's actions regardless of how un-safe they are. As much as skydivers discuss the importance of safety, we fall short where the rubber meets the road.

Try not to read too much into each question, for example "I wouldn't make a hard toggle turn at 500 feet". You might if someone cuts you off. Just assume, for whatever reason, you are in that situation. I have found myself in some very unusual situations over the years I never would have thought I would have gotten into. Thanks to all that replied.

Hook

[D22369 0]

13. You witness a rigger pack a Seat bailout rig, but does not have a Seat rating, only a Back rating?

Tell whoever's gonna be wearing that rig to wear it higher than he normally would

14. You land off, in a tree, 20 feet above the ground?

Expect to stay up there a little longer because you're gonna be in the X'mas video

LOLOLOLOL----->>>>LMFAO...........heheheh, true.....waaaaay too cool, thanks willie, I needed that laugh!!!!!!

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[poohbeer 0]

couple of questions since I'm a complete newbie at this shit. (1 tandem, AFF in the planning)

Why is it dangerous to jump in a cloud?
Is a plane supposed to have seatbelts? The plane I made my tandem from didn't even have seats, let alone belts?!

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[skymedic 0]

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Is a plane supposed to have seatbelts?

Yes reguired by the FAR's....

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The plane I made my tandem from didn't even have seats, let alone belts?!

Most skydiving planes will not have seats...but all of them have to have belt's...at least in the US. some planes will have side benches, stradle benches, or the floor to sit on...there all comfortable to a point.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[wmw999 2,545]

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but all of them have to have belt's...at least in the US.

And there we have the key.

Poohbeer, in Belgium seatbelts may not be required. Jumping through clouds is a bad idea often because you can't see each other, and if there are any airplanes, you can't see them. You can't check for clear air before pulling, either. All are bad.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Samurai136 0]

Additionally, there can be radical differences in air pressure in a cloud. An altimeter will read different altitudes from the varience in pressure. No visual reference and unreliable information from the altimeter. You have no altitude awareness.

How do you know that the bottom of the cloud isn't at ground level? Clouds are like dense fog. Do you drive cars at 120mph+ in dense fog?

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Additionally, there can be radical differences in air pressure in a cloud. An altimeter will read different altitudes from the variance in pressure. No visual reference and unreliable information from the altimeter. You have no altitude awareness.

I have been in free fall in clouds, under canopy in clouds, and flown aircraft through clouds and never noticed this phenomenon.

Hook

[ManBird 0]

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Additionally, there can be radical differences in air pressure in a cloud. An altimeter will read different altitudes from the variance in pressure. No visual reference and unreliable information from the altimeter. You have no altitude awareness.

I have been in free fall in clouds, under canopy in clouds, and flown aircraft through clouds and never noticed this phenomenon.

Nor have I. You're definitely not flying at ground level on jump run, but I don't think you were being totally serious (s136). If I can see the DZ, or at least a reference that I know I can maintain a visual on, I'll get out, otherwise, I won't. I've done this, and have spent a lot of time in freefall and under canopy in clouds. In keeping altitude awareness, especially in clouds (if it clouds over completely, it's nice to know that I came out at 3,000 -- hop and pops), I've never noticed altimeter reading irregularites (at least not significant enough to notice).

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Luminous 0]

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have been in free fall in clouds,

NO. NO. NO.

In the freefall reference, I'm sure what you refered to as "clouds" was in fact "Industrial haze".

BSBD
Larry

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[Luminous 0]

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18. How out of date, and did he call his rigger? This ultimately lies on the riggers shoulders, since his seal is on the rig.
_

ultimately lies on the riggers shoulders? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Should the rigger in fact be questioned his own log book would show when he last packed the rig. And, unless it's the rigger doing it, he can't be held responsible for any pencil pack performed on the rig. This is the responsibility of the rig owner.

The pencil back job should ultimately lie on the pencil packers shoulders. (pun intended).

BSBD
Larry

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[quade 4]

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Additionally, there can be radical differences in air pressure in a cloud. An altimeter will read different altitudes from the varience in pressure. No visual reference and unreliable information from the altimeter. You have no altitude awareness.

Uh, excuse me?

Could you maybe give me a reference to where you got this idea from because in -my- reality, that's simply not the case.

I think that clouds can have associated updrafts and downdrafts and temperature and dewpoint differences, but to my knowledge the PRESSURE doesn't change.

Geeze for the sake of IFR pilots around the planet I HOPE it doesn't!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver