betzilla 56 #51 April 9, 2003 Quote Our country, but not the huge investment in my Drop Zone. You can bet I'd be pissed off (nice pun, eh?) if I had to piss test to get a passport or a soical security card. Quote oh yeah i forget money is more important than freedom too Not money v. freedom. Private v. public. Speaking of freedom, I'm free to work where ever I like, right? As are all other employees. Hey If the best instructors get upset about pee testing and go to another local DZ to teach (there are 3 within easy driving distance of us, so it's not like if they don't teach here, they just don't teach) -- what better form of protest is there than that? They'd probably take some students with them -- you know how loyal students are to their favorite instructor. Of course, nobody's left SDC over this issue yet... Go figure. I'm not going to change your mind, and though there is a LOT of value in what you say, you're not going to change mine either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #52 April 9, 2003 Quote Of course, nobody's left SDC over this issue yet... Go figure. your right, but then there is also the perceived guilt & persecution and the uprooting of family and friends to contend with..its far easier to shrug and say "oh well i dont use so why do i care if they want my piss" than it is to take a stand on principles.. i too appreciate your views and never intend any post as an accusation or attack, but i feel this is an important social issue that far to many people simply dismiss as it does not (as yet) affect their daily lives____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #53 April 9, 2003 Quote i too appreciate your views and never intend any post as an accusation or attack, but i feel this is an important social issue that far to many people simply dismiss as it does not (as yet) affect their daily lives hey! We agree on something in this thread! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #54 April 9, 2003 Quoteand apparently that minor (as it is a very minor supplement to proper supervision) is more important than the founding freedoms our country was based on. There's a two fold answer to that question...If I was the student, you would also be putting me in a potential risky situation. Somewhere I dont' want to be...i.e. you're possibly increasing my personal exposure to an incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #55 April 9, 2003 Quote..its far easier to shrug and say "oh well i dont use so why do i care if they want my piss" than it is to take a stand on principles.. So, let me throw this into the mix. The subcontractor agreement that the instructor signs clearly states, and has for several years, that the instructor might be subject to a random drug test. Since the instructor has signed it for several years, they are aware that this is a condition of being an instructor at the dz. (this is no place to stick in the 'well the instructor never read it' comment because we are all responsible for what we sign) Now, fast forward to the present. DZO decides to equally apply initial tests, then random tests to all staffers and a one, two, maybe more, maybe less, balk because they don't want their private lives invaded. (refer to above where they signed the contract refering to random drug testing) Thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katzeye 0 #56 April 9, 2003 Hm. That reminds me of an old-timers sky-story. Back in the day, the only limitation on drinking and skydiving was that if you could get in the plane unassisted, then you were OK to skydive. Just a thought... I'm all for drug testing for skydive professionals. LA* Is a chicken omelette redundant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #57 April 9, 2003 QuoteThe subcontractor agreement that the instructor signs clearly states, and has for several years, that the instructor might be subject to a random drug test. Several years? I think there might be some discrepancy here. Some say it started at the beginning of the year it changed. Can we clear that up? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #58 April 9, 2003 QuoteQuoteThe subcontractor agreement that the instructor signs clearly states, and has for several years, that the instructor might be subject to a random drug test. Several years? I think there might be some discrepancy here. Some say it started at the beginning of the year it changed. Can we clear that up? Chris psst....he wasn't talking about SDCFly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,079 #59 April 9, 2003 >Is there a DZ out there that's going to do drug tests, and then > say, "well, Pete does seem to be baked, but he passed that drug > test last month, so he's clean. Let him take that student?" If it _is_ possible to tell, then you don't need drug testing. >In the case of my DZ (obviously I can't speak for the others), drug > testing is not intended to be a substitute for personal accountability, > but a supplement to it. I have seen at least two cases where drug testing was proposed to relieve the DZO/CI from having to use their judgement in what would turn out to be a sticky situation. So I've sorta seen the opposite. In addition, keep in mind that if you fire someone for drug use, and they have passed a drug test, they can sue - and win. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #60 April 10, 2003 I have been thinking about this issue and have a few questions. Will ALL the Instructors be tested and be subjected to random testing? What would happen in the event of a 'positive' test? Is there a plan to keep results confidential? Will an Instructor have to pass a test prior to taking students at the DZ? Did something change that a testing program is being initiated? Or does the DZO just feel it is time to implement testing? What does not taking the a drug test limit an Instructor to? No contact w/ students, ground schools only, coaching only? How often will the Instructors be tested? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #61 April 10, 2003 Quote psst....he wasn't talking about SDC pssst...... I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #62 April 10, 2003 QuoteSeveral years? I think there might be some discrepancy here. Some say it started at the beginning of the year it changed. Can we clear that up? Chris It's been on the subcontractor agreement for several years, although not used until now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 12 #63 April 10, 2003 In the Canadian military " rumor has it " they slowed down on the drug testing. Although the CAF is known for it's dislike of restricted substances... they simply can't afford to loose their highly train people. So in the end they just do less drug testing. " They don't want to know anymore." ...mike ----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #64 April 10, 2003 I aggree 100% man. Ie.....Folks dont mess with Drugs...while skydiving...it dont mix at all..even in a place of business. Keep our Sport clean and safe at best. It keeps trouble and the big guys off everyones back. Be cool drink a Coke a Cola on the rocks...improvise,adapt,overcome the Big Evil.. The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #65 April 10, 2003 Check This Out this will kind of put things in perspective.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #66 April 10, 2003 QuoteQuote***In the case of my DZ (obviously I can't speak for the others), drug testing is not intended to be a substitute for personal accountability, but a supplement to it. and apparently that minor (as it is a very minor supplement to proper supervision) is more important than the founding freedoms our country was based on. how many skydiving deaths have been directly attributed to drug use? how many skydives were made during that same time period? do you honestly believe that possibly saving a few lives is worth the continuing erosion of personal responsibility, privacy and trust implied by drug testing policies? how many people have died to create the unique culture of freedom we used to enjoy? actions and policies (by individuals, the government, private businesses or dropzones) that take away from those founding principles devalue, and demean their sacrifice it has become a cliché of late, but safety is not worth freedom.. Your argument is bogus - your freedoms do not extend to putting illegal substances in your body. This has been upheld at every level of the judicial system up to and including the US Supreme Court. Your freedoms do not include the right to dictate to your employer the terms of your employment. Your freedoms do include the right to look elsewhere for employment if you don't like your current employer's policies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #67 April 10, 2003 yeah thats right pursuit of happiness isnt a freedom..just because the courts say its so doesnt mean they are right. Of course the majority of the populace are now trained sheep to afraid to question the decisions of their masters.. i'm done with this thread i've heard the heavy click of minds snapping shut far to often.. i hope your grandchildren enjoy the police state that these attitudes help to create. ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,108 #68 April 10, 2003 Quote yeah thats right pursuit of happiness isnt a freedom..just because the courts say its so doesnt mean they are right. Of course the majority of the populace are now trained sheep to afraid to question the decisions of their masters.. i'm done with this thread i've heard the heavy click of minds snapping shut far to often.. i hope your grandchildren enjoy the police state that these attitudes help to create. I'm not creating a police state, I am telling you the way it IS. I am 100% against the criminalization of marijuana (not so sure about cocaine, heroin and truly addictive stuff). If you don't like the law, get in touch with your Senator and Congressman. By the way, the right to pursue happiness is not in the US Constitution or Bill of Rights and so you won't get very far telling that to a judge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
