FAC 0 #1 April 8, 2003 I originally posted this locally, but decided to post it here since we are the DZ that will be starting the drug testing. O.k. Lets put an end to the rumors and speculations about the drug testing. As the manager of the DZ, I played a major role in the decision for the testing. Here are the facts of our decision. First, I am one of the most anti-drug persons you will find. I have never touched an illegal drug, nor have I ever smoked a cigarette. I don't even drink. Don't believe me? Ask anyone who knows me well and they will tell you just how I feel about any of the above subjects. With that said, don't ever attempt to bring any illegal substance to the DZ, for I will be the first to kick you off the airport. What people do on their own time away from the DZ is their own business. However, when it comes to the business I have a different opinion. In all 50 states, driving is a privilege, not a right. If you are pulled over and are asked to take a sobriety test, you have a right to refuse, but you will lose your PRIVILEGE to drive. Colorado is a right to hire / right to fire state for any reason as long as it doesn't involve race, sex, religion, or age. Therefore working for any business is a privilege, not a right. If you refuse to take a drug test from a company that has a drug test policy, you may lose your privilege. As far as a civil right issue, oh please, if that had any weight to it, the ACLU would be marching at the doorstep of the millions of businesses across the country everyday that drug test. If you were in a any kind of accident and found unconscious, and later woke up in the hospital and found out they took blood tests…would you sue them for violating your civil rights? If you answered yes to that question, you have some serious personal issues. Now back to the DZ's decision. If you think that this is a ploy for advertising get a grip. Do you really think people will base their decision solely on weather a DZ drug tests? Sure there may be a few radical people out there that might, but not enough to outweigh the cost and the hassle factor of doing the tests. Saying drug testing is for advertising is completely ambiguous. I can think of a thousand better ways to spend that money on real advertising. As far as a witch hunt. If I suspected anyone of the staff of being impaired in anyway. I personally would ask that person to prove to me otherwise including a drug test. I have no problem firing a person on the spot I believe is impaired (the obvious impaired). I have that right. The reality is, it is impossible to know how every person acts if they are impaired. Therefore, to make it fair, drug testing everyone on hire and random is the way to go. Attacking other drop zones. I would love to see all the Colorado drop zones institute drug testing. It can only help the sport here in our state. Can anyone honestly say that people wouldn't want to learn to skydive in CO because they drug test their staff? That’s the same as saying I refuse to fly with the airlines because the FAA tests the pilots. Would you feel safer if they didn't? Once again I encourage all CO DZ's to follow suit. The bottom line. We feel at our DZ that drug testing can only promote the extra safety steps and the professionalism of the sport. I firmly believe that anyone who uses illegal drugs and is involved in the risk of other peoples lives should seek another profession. I would love to see an instructor tell a first time student… "Oh, by the way, when I'm not at work I use illegal drugs. Don't worry, I'm fine now. You can trust me, I always follow the rules." Once again our decision is based on safety. We cannot prevent all human errors. We can however help to ensure the public that we are taking steps for their safety. How can anyone argue with that. We have had overwhelming support from our staff. Out of all the instructors, most were 100% supportive, a few didn't care one way or the other, and only 1 instructor outright opposed and refused to work there anymore. I hope I have set the record straight on this subject. At a time when the TSA is trying to secure the skies and sometimes steps on us little guys, we have to show them that the USPA and the skydiving industry can self-regulate. And if our drop zone has to lead by example, we will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #2 April 8, 2003 Well put Frank, every outfit I ever worked for always had the same old safety rant, I've heard it a thousand times. Its funny how nobody ever points out how it (drug testing) affects the liability bottom line err. blueskies jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #3 April 8, 2003 Well, Frank I applaud your courage and dedication to the sport. If others can't see how this can only benefit everyone that jumps at your drop zone, then I would have to say they are in denial. I hope other DZ's follow suit! As far as vicarious liability goes. Anybody can sue anyone anytime for anything. There is always a hungry lawyer ready to take a case with suspected deep pockets! Drug testing will make little difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrdavidc 0 #4 April 8, 2003 You sound like a bit of a hard ass. I don't think I would like to jump with or around someone that puts out a vibe like you. I'm not in to "drugs" either but, relax man. What are the stats on drug related injuries/death and jumping or DZ related functions anyway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samp76 0 #5 April 8, 2003 I agree. Hopefully other DZ will start to do drug test too. -Sam-Let go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
covey 0 #6 April 8, 2003 Frank I totally agree that a private business has the right to run things as they see fit. My beef is with the drug screening being used under the disguise of "based on safety". Unless you plan on screening every employee every morning then it is just a CYA ploy. If an employee uses marijuana on their day off and is completely recovered the drug test is still going to show hot. You even said what an employee does off the property is there business. What is your testing method for stress and sleep deprivation? What about the other drugs that don't show up on a standard urinalysis? If you are truly concerned for the safety of your patrons you would pay for blood and hair tests everyday. That still wouldn't screen for physical and mental fatigue. So why not just come out and say that the reason you are doing this is too cover your ass in case of an accident. We are adults. If there is someone on your staff that you are skeptical about then why did you hire them. You said that you don't have a problem firing anybody. So why not just get rid of the employees that you think are unsafe and save your business some money. It is just for safety after all. I do not use illegal drugs. I do drink beer though. Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #7 April 8, 2003 Quote Frank I totally agree that a private business has the right to run things as they see fit. My beef is with the drug screening being used under the disguise of "based on safety". Unless you plan on screening every employee every morning then it is just a CYA ploy. If an employee uses marijuana on their day off and is completely recovered the drug test is still going to show hot. You even said what an employee does off the property is there business. What is your testing method for stress and sleep deprivation? What about the other drugs that don't show up on a standard urinalysis? If you are truly concerned for the safety of your patrons you would pay for blood and hair tests everyday. That still wouldn't screen for physical and mental fatigue. So why not just come out and say that the reason you are doing this is too cover your ass in case of an accident. We are adults. If there is someone on your staff that you are skeptical about then why did you hire them. You said that you don't have a problem firing anybody. So why not just get rid of the employees that you think are unsafe and save your business some money. It is just for safety after all. I do not use illegal drugs. I do drink beer though. Do you agree with drug testing for airline pilots?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivegirl 0 #8 April 8, 2003 Quote So why not just come out and say that the reason you are doing this is too cover your ass in case of an accident. And this is a negative point how.... ????. He can run his business however he likes, it is his business after all. Getting drug tested by your employer is pretty common these days. I don't really think it's a big deal. But then again, I'm not in any danger of failing a drug test.Pink Mafia Sis #26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #9 April 8, 2003 Quote You sound like a bit of a hard ass. You obviously don't know Frank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #10 April 8, 2003 Frank, about time more DZO/DZmanagers step up to the plate. on the testing everyday issue...the fact that you can get a random drug test is a deterent to not having to do that. where I work we have random drug tests. I can get nailed going three times in a week...or could work for years and not get called up after my initial after hire pee test. it is a deterent and it does work. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #11 April 8, 2003 Quote on the testing everyday issue...the fact that you can get a random drug test is a deterent to not having to do that. where I work we have random drug tests. I can get nailed going three times in a week...or could work for years and not get called up after my initial after hire pee test. it is a deterent and it does work. Marc, didn't you get a random test after the report came out about the SDC fatality? When was the last time they did a random test where you work? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #12 April 8, 2003 I'd prefer jumping with a hard ass than with a drug addict any day! If it boils down to safety compared to personal integrity, I'd choose safety any day! I'd say anyone who claims integrity more important than safety, has something to hide! When it comes to safety involving others than yourself, I feel it is up to you to prove that you are fit to perform the task (may it be skydiving, driving, flying or whatever). It isn't (or shouldn't be) up to someone else to prove that you aren't! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #13 April 8, 2003 Quote If it boils down to safety compared to personal integrity, I'd choose safety any day! I'd say anyone who claims integrity more important than safety, has something to hide! Moreover, I'd say somebody who makes that claim is kidding themselves about what people are really like. If there wasn't a problem (perceived or otherwise) in this area,. and therefore no need fro drug tests, this argument wouldn't even be happening. A person who promotes safety has plenty of integrity if you ask me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #14 April 8, 2003 Quote Marc, didn't you get a random test after the report came out about the SDC fatality? When was the last time they did a random test where you work? My previous employer in the chicagoland area had heard about the drug related fatality at SDC, they knew I was a skydiver and that SDC was one of my home Drop zones. I was suddenly given a "random" drug screen. part of the job...i really don't mind as I have nothing to hide. thing is last time they had given a "random" drug screen was over 4 years ago....... Drugs in dead skydiver's systems make us all look bad...I just dont understand how you guy's dont see that..... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #15 April 8, 2003 Quote Quote If it boils down to safety compared to personal integrity, I'd choose safety any day! I'd say anyone who claims integrity more important than safety, has something to hide! Moreover, I'd say somebody who makes that claim is kidding themselves about what people are really like. If there wasn't a problem (perceived or otherwise) in this area,. and therefore no need fro drug tests, this argument wouldn't even be happening. A person who promotes safety has plenty of integrity if you ask me. I agree a person that promotes safety does have a lot of integrety! I don't know if this i a problem about my english not coming through right. At least in Swedish the word integrity can be used in the sense "I have certain ideals and standards and I stick to them", and integrity in the sense "I shouldn't have to pee in a cup because that is an invasion on my privacy" I was trying to make the point that if integrity in the sense "Invasion of privacy" is more important than safety does have something to hide. The other point was that I am more than ready to sacrifice some of my "privacy" if that promotes safety. I guess a better word than integrity would have been privacy!? Did I come across better now or did I just make my point even more dim? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #16 April 8, 2003 Quote Drugs in dead skydiver's systems make us all look bad Only because the public already believes it. The death was confirmation. Think of this, if a person was smoking in the parking lot of a bowling alley and then was in a car accident on the drive home, would your employer drug-test all bowlers? Nope, it would never enter their minds. Whether you do drugs or not, if you are a skydiver, you have already given them that perception. That is why you were drug tested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
covey 0 #17 April 8, 2003 More airline pilots get busted for alcohol then drugs. My point is that a random drug screen policy is just a smoke screen. It's a false safety blanket for the public. Anyone who uses illegal drugs that show up on a drug screen know how to beat the system. I have worked at plenty of places that random drug screen. I know alot of people that still use drugs while they are employed there. So you have to ask yourself do you really feel safer because there is a random drug screen in place? The only way a drug screening policy would make me feel warm and fuzzy inside would be if they did them every day. It would then become too expensive for the drug addicts to beat the screening and they would quit. I do not feel safe getting on a commercial flight just because there is a random drug screen. I would feel just as safe if there wasn't one. I feel safe because there is a flight crew. A team. Lets not forget FMS too. Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #18 April 8, 2003 How accurate is your drug test? How often will it show a false positive?Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #19 April 8, 2003 Damn! Four separate threads on the same subject and more or less same things being repeated over and over...This problem is obviously not yet ready for a serious, productive debate. Drug testing may be perceived as an invasion of privacy by some people. Some might see it as a sign of their employer's trust (or lack of it) in them. Others welcome it because they 'have nothing to hide'. But with so many things that can have a bigger effect on a person's performance than occasional drug use, and can not be tested for, drug testing improves your (self)image far more than it improves your safety, despite of what your beliefs are. Damn again! This has all been said before... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
covey 0 #20 April 8, 2003 It is a negative point when you are using it under the disguise of safety. Quote I don't really think it's a big deal. But then again, I'm not in any danger of failing a drug test. ~Samantha Then how about if everytime you go into work or get pulled over you get strip searched looking for "drugs". You don't have anything to worry about since you don't use drugs. It is all about them taking a slice of the pie. If you don't stand for something. You will fall for anything! Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #21 April 8, 2003 Ditto from here too. It's part of the job where I work too, DOT regulation. Got no problem with it - in some strange sort of way - what I design can make the difference between a person living through an accident and becoming an obituary. In the case of a pilot (or tandem instructor), even more so. I feel if another persons life depends directly on your ability to do your job at 100% in a high stress situation, drug testing is fair game. Employment is a privledge, not a right - if one does not agree with the legal hiring practices of an employer (or industry) - they are free to look elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
covey 0 #22 April 8, 2003 Well put. Thank you. Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #23 April 8, 2003 Quote Drugs in dead skydiver's systems make us all look bad...I just dont understand how you guy's dont see that..... also only if you assume (as the ignorant public does) that the drugs were the cause of the fatality. Of course they do make a convenient scapegoat since they are already demonized by the government advertising, allowing a tidy summation of cause without any actual evidence. wonders when public acceptance became an important part of skydiving in the first place?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #24 April 8, 2003 Quote I guess a better word than integrity would have been privacy!? Did I come across better now or did I just make my point even more dim? No, the word has many meanings in english too. Somebody who refuses to test for reasons of privacy absolutely has that right. I don't have a problem with that. But I sure like knowing that my pilots and packers, and the instructors instilling safety standards in the new students here, and leading by example (not to mention strapping a student to their chest before jumping!), are willing to prove they're clean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #25 April 8, 2003 Quote *** Whether you do drugs or not, if you are a skydiver, you have already given them that perception. That is why you were drug tested. This sound to me like you think the line "You either have to be crazy or on drugs to jump out of a perfectly good airplane" is the way the non skydiving population actually thinks of us. It might be so. But why then is it so wrong to try to root out the ones that actually are on drugs, and to show that we as skydivers don't accept that stereotype and try to do something about it? The post regarding that there are ways to beat the system. If the system is not 100% is that reason not do it? Deploying the main does't save 100% of the skydivers. So don't deploy the main! Bad analogy but perhaps still valid in some sense! Reasons for testing being stereotypes, covering your ass as DZO, being a hard ass or whatever, the fact still remains: When you skydive you assume responsability not only for your own life. One argument I've often enough heard from addicts "Why should you tell me what to do with my own life" doesn't apply here! There are others involved!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites