Skydive Kansas

[diverdrivr 0]

It is not our intent in this response to change your opinion. Instead, it is our intent to give a clear explanation of the issue posted earlier by Mark Weaver.

The regulations we follow and our specific DZ policy can be found at www.skydivekansas.com/policy_lic.htm. They have been posted on our site and at the DZ well before they went into effect January 1, 2003. However this episode did bring to our attention that our current policy was hard to find on our website, so we moved it to a direct link on the front page and in the menu.

With the privilege of enjoying a sport such as this comes the personal responsibility for your own safety. With the privilege of enjoying owning a dropzone comes the even greater responsibility for all customers' safety. We as dropzone owners have the right to make rules to fit the individual needs of our dropzone. Our policies on these matters reflect the amount of risk we at Skydive Kansas are willing to accept. Our specific dropzone rules come from our experiences as owners. We know by having strict rules we lose licensed jumper business and yes even tandem business (we allow no tandems over 210lbs).

It is not the fact that we necessarily see people as being unsafe who don’t meet these requirements. It is that there are many issues which have made these rules come about at our dz over the years. Only if you have the experience of being a DZO in a comparable situation can you possibly understand. Some of these issues we have no control over. In time, these rules may become more or less strict.

To make exceptions to any rule for any reason would be to be say that rules are subjective and meaningless. After learning that we are consistent in following regulations and our policies, Mark tore up his waiver and threw it on the manifest desk. Later that day, he stated specifically in a voice message on our home phone and in emails that he would “badmouth” our dropzone on discussion groups and to all his skydiving friends.

We all have the prerogative as jumpers to choose where we jump and what rules we will follow. Whether you jump with or without an AAD, with a high or low wing loading, or weigh more than your reserve is TSO'ed to hold is your choice. But it is not your choice at Skydive Kansas. Our rules are not debatable and there are no exceptions; this ensures clarity and consistency.


Blue Skies, James and Jennifer Sharp

[jdfreefly 1]

Well said. I believe it is your right to run your business the way you want.

Personaly, I wouldn't/couldn't jump there. No biggie. But I give you credit for sticking to an unpopular opinion.

This thread is gonna be a doosy.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[PhreeZone 20]

I agree with JD. With out knowing all the ups and downs of a DZ its not fair to expect them to change the rules for visiting jumpers.

I don't agree with all the rules, but I do agree with the policy of sticking to your rules.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[weavermc 0]

Mr/Mrs Sharp,
thank you for finally responding to my comments/issues, albeit almost a week later.

In the voicemail I left you, I did say I would not bring any of my business to your DZ, and I would be sure to tell anyone who asked me what I thought about your DZ, to include posting the info on here.

I did, after thinking about it some more, rephrase my comments when I finally did post to tell you that I appreciate your commitment to safety, but I do stand by my original comments as I posted them, and they are basically that your treatment of me was rude, your information was NOT posted in any part of your website that I saw before coming to your DZ (and I spent a long time browsing your site), you NEVER mentioned the policy in the emails we exchanged when I told you i'd be in the area and offered my instructor skills to you, and I still think a 1.5 limit is excessive.

Again I will reiterate that I am glad you regard safety as a top priority, but you still have a LOT to learn about customer service. I tore up my waiver because it was worthless, and I 'tossed' back on the counter - you make it sound like I threw it in your face.

My original post has generated some interesting replies and I have learned from them. Some reinforce your policy and commitment, and some question some parts of it.

If nothing else, I hope you learn to treat customers better since I have yet to see a reply or personal message (there have been many) that have talked about what a nice DZ you have... The personal messages all refer to how poorly you treat visiting jumpers - just something to think about.

Thankfully, I'll be going back to friendly DZs in Texas soon, but in the meantime, I'll be giving my business, and that of my fellow military officers (Tandems) to Missouri River Skydivers and Skydive Kansas City - two places that already treat me better.

My two cents dropped - too bad it had to be in an open forum since you wouldn't answer my phone calls or emails.

Mark Weaver
weavermc@hotmail.com

[AggieDave 6]

In my 3 short years in the sport I've seen (as I'm sure you have too), people under a 1.5:1 wingloading seriosly hurt themselves under canopy. However, I've seen others die under much higher wingloadings too.

As a side note, I did hook the snot out of a Navigator 300 (loaded under 1:1 obviously) on Wednesday and swooped it (only about 40 ft, but hey, that's a big wing...). You can swoop anything you want, if you try.

My point is, since people who load canopies up, tend to do high performance landings, a wingloading restriction won't stop people from swooping.

Something it might do, though, is keep younger jumpers from learning proper high performance canopy flight from someone with the knowledge and experience to teach it properly, and they might start trying to do it on their own. Possibly driving themselves into the ground simply because the people who could have taught it can't jump at your DZ, so they never learned.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skycat 0]

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Our specific dropzone rules come from our experiences as owners.

Our rules are not debatable and there are no exceptions; this ensures clarity and consistency.

Maybe I'm jaded, but I see a DZO who is also the S&TA who doesn't want to be bothered having to decide if someone is qualified to fly the canopy that they have. So make a blanket rule, stick with it, and never have to worry about being the bad guy, by telling someone they can't fly thier highly loaded canopy.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Hooknswoop 19]

No one has questioned a DZO's right to make any rules they wish. that does not mean we cannot discuss any rules we feel are wrong.

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It is not the fact that we necessarily see people as being unsafe who don’t meet these requirements. It is that there are many issues which have made these rules come about at our dz over the years.

Why do you have the 1.5:1 max wing loading rule?

Quote

To make exceptions to any rule for any reason would be to be say that rules are subjective and meaningless.

You are pilot. Do you consider the FAR's subjective and meaningless? It is possible to file a waiver for FAR's (i.e. demonstration jumps) that the FAA may grant. Does that make FAR's subjective and meaningless?

Hook

[nightjumps 1]

I have a question. Your website states no one over 254 lbs, but your thread says, "...weigh more than your reserve is TSO'ed to hold..."

My exit weight is 265#, my main and Harness/Container are TSO'd at 300 lbs, and I jump a Raven 249 Dash M rated at 277#...Would I be allowed to jump there?

No, I'm not a fatty. 6'6" 19 inch arms, etc. - just...

Oh never mind. If It becomes my responsibility to figure out ways of doing business with you, it ain't worth it. I was coming to KC soon, but I'll just leave the rig home.

[sunshine 2]

Off the topic but, it's kinda tacky to have a username so close to Diverdriver. When i first saw the thread i assumed it was a post from Chris.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[eeneR 3]

Heh, I was a little confused myself.....

DISCLAIMER!!!!! This post is not from the REAL DIVERDRIVER....Chris S....It is a post from a DZO using the same name spelled different.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[wmw999 2,557]

Yeah, but when you're new you don't know who's famous and who isn't. He saw a need to come here and post -- given the situation, hanging out for awhile wasn't really an option.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[eeneR 3]

It cool, he can use what he wishes...just need to clarify this is not Chris posting.....

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[Amazon 7]

Oh Mr KS DZO.. I know plenty of people, who are avid skydivers and jump far less than that 1:5 to 1 loading, that would never be allowed onto your dropzone, because their exit weight is WAY over that 250 weight limit.. I jump with one guy who is like 6'6"and 320 pounds.He loads a 260 Triathalon at about 1.35 to 1 with his gear. Most of the big people are not stupid enough to have reserves that are TSO'ed for LESS than thier weight and they have gear that is appropriate to their statuesque size... Like the guy who is 6'6:... with the 19" arms.... hmmmmm. oops.. back on track Mr DZ operator.... do you have large/tall people issues???? There are plenty of guys who are shorter.... who are massively built... and if they are more than 250 by the time they put on their gear they are over your weight limit..they are a no go for your DZ.. Many of these people are serving or have served their country by the way.. The solution is fairly easy... less people on the plane...if need be paying for the fourth slot to keep from overloading, wing extensions on your C-182...but I doubt if I can change a closed mind We are a tight knit skydiving community and word gets around. I think its even better still to find a better DZ with turbo aircraft that wants people to come to them and to build and grow a business. Good reason not to stop in Kansas anymore Dorothy..

Amazon...
6' tall and lovin it

[Jethers203 0]

Hey KS DZO,

I will still jump at your DZ. The reason is because my Sabre 2 150 is only loaded at 1.499999999. Will you weigh me? I will jump naked if I have too exit with less weight? I'll even put a larger reserve in my rig. What ever it takes.

I'm still going to bust a fat swoop though!!! See you all soon. . . . Let me know!!!!!

John D-24352

P.S. Is tornado season over yet??? That would suck. . . . Damn Tornadoes!!!!!

[diverdriver 6]

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If nothing else, I hope you learn to treat customers better since I have yet to see a reply or personal message (there have been many) that have talked about what a nice DZ you have...

Ummm....well....are you judging the facilities or the people? I posted how nice they were HERE and CDRinf posted:

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I have jumped at SD Kansas and know Jim and Jenn Sharp. They are good people with a low key, friendly, student oriented DZ. The DZ is also very child friendly since they have several small children. It's the first place I could bring my son with me and leave him on the ground while I jumped.

So how can you say that no one has replied saying it is a nice DZ?

Chris

[weavermc 0]

I stand corrected on that point...

[sarge 0]

Quote

It is not the fact that we necessarily see people as being unsafe who don’t meet these requirements. It is that there are many issues which have made these rules come about at our dz over the years. Only if you have the experience of being a DZO in a comparable situation can you possibly understand. Some of these issues we have no control over. In time, these rules may become more or less strict.

would you please elaborate in more specific terms... what these issues are or have been that influenced your decision to establish your policies?

If I did'nt know any better, I wouldn't even question the policies. I would like to emphathise with your need to enforce these policies if they are truly objective and substantive.

But, there are truly troubled dz's with 'real' issues such as Kaposowin, LVN and I have had the privelege of having facts to form my own opinions: what are yours [facts]?

Thanks

.

--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

[JYorkster 0]

I applaud you for having strict policies and sticking to them. (maybe you should run the UN) However, I also hope that this 'discussion' has opened debate among the decisions makers at your DZ. Because of better and better canopy designs, 1.5 isn't 'as scary' as it once was. As an example, Cobalt recommends 1.2-1.4 for beginners and 1.4-1.6 for intermediate. I guess no one there jumps a Cobalt?

My point is that though I agree with your right to make whatever policies you see fit, I believe the decision you made does not reflect advancements made in regards to equipment. I don't think you should have made an exception, but I do believe you may want to rethink where you drew the line for everyone.

Just my two cents,
Rock

[lewmonst 0]

I'd just like post a comment about Skydive Kansas. I went to Kansas City years ago (5 i think) to visit some family friends. At the time I only had around 20 jumps, but i was dying to make another jump. I didn't have my A license yet, didn't have gear, and didn't even know how to pack yet. I distinctly remember the Sharp's and their staff being very nice and welcoming to me. Of course i was a customer, but they went out of their way to help me. The didn't charge me gear rental, or even for a coach jump, just a regular lift ticket. Instead they had one of their staff, LittleJoe, jump with me as a coach/check kinda dive. The dive went great, Joe taught me how to pack and then invited me on a 4-way as he thought my skills were good enough for it. My first 4-way, got at least 4 points even though I didn't send in for a Falcon. They let my friend ride in the plane on one of the jumps. They and their friendly staff made it a wonderful experience. I usually have a bad memory, but I will never forget my one day at Skydive Kansas. Btw, James & Jennifer, I don't think i ever really thanked you. So thank you, for being so nice to me as a student. If i get a new Crossfire 108 like I want, I know I won't be able to jump it there, but I would definately stop in to see good people.

peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[billvon 3,086]

>So make a blanket rule, stick with it, and never have to worry about
>being the bad guy, by telling someone they can't fly thier highly loaded canopy.

Well, yeah. But the alternative is being the bad guy to every single person who walks through the door. Pretty much every single skydiver out there thinks they're the exception, they have superior canopy skills and can handle their smaller canopy. So the choice of a DZO who wishes to implement such a policy is:

1. allow everyone to do it
2. allow no one to do it, no exceptions
3. fight with every new jumper who walks through the door

While I don't see much wrong with option 1 (it's what most DZ's do) I can see why they would choose 2 over 3.

[BigBird 0]

I thought I would respond to this thread as well.
I have jumped at Skydive Kansas since 1998 and now fly camera for them. I have always enjoyed myself there. I have 3 Cessna DZ 's about the same distance from my house. And I prefer to go to Skydive kansas because of the family atmosphere. Jen & Jim have always treated me like a friend from the first time I showed up. I firmly believe , as business owners, they have the right to run the business how they see fit. I understand the frustration of not knowing the policy and being turned away after making a long drive to the DZ.(I think from this point forward, the policy is pretty clear to everyone...)
I am one of those jumpers who can live quite easily with a 1.5 wing loading restriction, so I will continue to jump at Skydive KS. Because I love to jump and I love to jump with the many friends I have made at Skydive kansas.
If you don't agree with the policy, there are other DZ's from which to jump and of course you can open your own DZ and make your own rules!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I firmly believe , as business owners, they have the right to run the business how they see fit.

Has anyone said different?

Hook

[Tonto 1]

Hey. Stick to your guns. I won't jump there cos I'm at 1.7, and I seem to land that ok, and have for the last several 1000 dives, but its your business, and you run it the way you want. I have 500 dives in Kansas. And I enjoyed them all.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[skydiverbrian 0]

Dear Sharps,

I've been grounded before because DZs wouldn't let me jump in a breeze because I only had an A-license. Others grounded me because they thought my canopy was too high-performance for my experience level.

So as one who's been in the same boat, it's very disappointing and frustrating to find out about these rules after you've already driven to the DZ. Especially if you're from out of town.

I disagree with your policies, but agree that you can do what you want and further, you don't owe anyone any explanations. Posting the rules in a very conspicuous place is the right step. If everyone did this, lots of miscommunications wouldn't happen and no one would be disappointed. So good for you in trying to clear the air and prevent future problems.

skydiverbrian
D-24954

In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal