Unsolicited advice and grumpiness

[Jessica 0]

Anyone want to discuss when unsolicited advice crosses the line into rudeness? And when a response to unwanted advice crosses the same line?

Helping people out is an essential part of this sport, obviously. There's very much an "elder" system in effect, where the best way to learn is from a mentor relationship.

If someone announces he wants to start BASE jumping, and asks if he can just jump his skydiving reserve, he deserves to have his ass jumped all over.

But there are times when it's not appropriate, and even condescending.

For example: I'm pretty well educated about my gear. Yet, people I don't know will approach me all the time and inform me that my Reflex is a death rig. Or that my Hornet is a PISA shit (ha ha!). Or tell me the rubber bands that I'm using are wrong. Or...well, the list goes on and on.

I don't appreciate this "advice." It's not helpful to me, and I find it insulting.

Yet, there's a rigger apprentice at my dropzone who knows his shit (still hate you though, floormonkey), and likes sharing the things he learns. I'm always happy when he gives me a tip, and I think our rigger likes it too. And this certainly isn't advice I've explicitly asked for.

At what point is it OK to to tell someone you don't know (or do know, for that matter), what you think they should do? Maybe a lot of it depends on the person giving the advice. Billvon could tell me to roll around in the dirt before a skydive to help fine-tune my fallrate, and I'd do it, but if a stranger told me to do something, I might give him the finger (and find out later he was Jack Jeffries).

Should we just set our egos aside and absorb all input in an open-minded spirit? That would be hard for me. I've got a thick veneer of defensiveness, developed from being treated like I'm stupid for a lot of my life.

Thoughts?

Skydiving is for cool people only

[freakydiver 0]

I'm with you there - I tend to get a little bent out of shape if someone I don't even know is telling me something. However, I've been trying to change my attitude over the past couple of years (my temper used to get me into trouble alot growing up) and I really try to listen to whatever anyone is telling me, even if inside I'm thinking to myself - uh huh, yah, yah, blah blah blah, whatever...

"But there are times when it's not appropriate, and even condescending."

I think the majority of people giving advice anywhere in the skydiving community at any given moment are really ultimately just trying to help and I try to remember that at all times - getting gear advice, getting axed from a load, etc...

BTW, you are not stupid, you jump from the aircraft that the rest of the world thinks is all perfectly safe

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[tombuch 0]

When I offer advice I like to start the conversation with a question, or series of questions..."How long have you been jumping a Reflex? Are you happy with it? You know, I'm a rigger and I think..."

The questions might help me learn something about the topic, might let the other person know that I'm interested in the topic and not just interested in fluffing my own ego, and can clue me into the experience of the person and how aware they are of the issues I'm interested in discussing.

Ok, so sometimes I'm a jerk and just announce my advice, but I generally try to start soft with a question, at least most of the time.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 3,116]

>Billvon could tell me to roll around in the dirt before a skydive
>to help fine-tune my fallrate, and I'd do it . . .

I gotta remember that . . .

>Should we just set our egos aside and absorb all input in an
>open-minded spirit?

I pretty much accept all input but I'm not neccessarily open minded about it. If someone tells me that they think my poptop is too loose, then that's an indication I should check it. If I think it's OK and they continue on about it I'll just sort of smile and nod.

I've also noticed that women get a lot more advice than men. Amy definitely gets more gear advice than I do. Sometimes it's a way to hit on women, sometimes it's a perception that women need more protection and guidance than men do.

[Amazon 7]

I think Ego's are a part of this sport to a certain extent. Just look at all the fights etc that go on here with Dudes with TUDE. I filter it for the most part with experience that is gleaned from people I trust. You can read thru these forums and find many people who are willing to share their experience. Some people will listen to that and others will automatically jump to the conclusion that its just another " there I was, this is no shit" story. The longer people jump, the more they see happen around them. It comes with the territory. If I can help someone not have a reserve ride such as I have had I will relay that information. Modern gear and techniques are much more pre-disastered. It was developed from lessons learned and a lot of good people lost in the process.

I just bought a PISA SR-71...I love it.. but I have put it away till I get a bit better with my current Triathalon.
I didn't jump for a lot of years. I for one appreciate the changes, I think 5 reserve rides are enough for me although I would cut a bad canopy away in a heartbeat. If I can listen and learn from someone to keep me safe, I will. Oh and for what its worth, I know what you mean about people treating others like they are stupid. Be assertive.. we fought for that back in the 70's so our daughters could and would have different lives than we had.

Amazon

[quade 4]

Quote

I think Ego's are a part of this sport to a certain extent.

OK, please think before posting. People could be drinking Coke and it could come spraying out their noses.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tigra 0]

Unsolicited advice is a big part of the sport, good and bad. I've seen and heard both, and probably dished some out.

There are newer jumpers out there who just try to absorb everything like a sponge, assume if you have more jumps than them that you must know more, and end up taking some bad advice from some yahoo "skygod" that get's them hurt (or dead).

Then there's the ones who won't listen to ANYONE but the dzo or their favorite jump master. As far as they are concerned, everyone else is just an arrogant A-hole with an attitude who can't teach them anything. Then they do something stupid that gets them (or someone else) hurt (or dead), mostly because they just wouldn't listen to someone who knew better.

But hopefully most of us can use a little common sense when it comes to giving OR receiving unsolicited advice. I mean, if you see something stupid or unsafe, speak up, but do so with some tact. And if someone takes the time to approach you about something, take a minute to listen and give the guy the benefit of the doubt that he's trying to help, even if you disagree with what he has to say.

just my .02...........

maura

[quade 4]

Quote

At what point is it OK to to tell someone you don't know (or do know, for that matter), what you think they should do?

Primarily if I think it's going to kill or injure them.

Telling somebody that a Reflex is a "death rig" serves no purpose. Telling somebody that their Reflex pop-top has come loose and needs to be tightened is a pretty good idea.

Tact is appreciated, but there are times when even tact should be put away. I have no problem whatsoever in being downright rude if somebody else's actions have a good probability of killing -me-.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

Kewl I made somebody laugh for once.... way too much grumpiness happening hereabouts lately.

woo hoo

Amazon

[tigra 0]

Yeah, tact definately doesn't work with some people or some situations.....

[amir1967 0]

I think that you have a good point .
for me it´s works like that if I just had a bad landing and someone try to be a smart ass ,I´ll say yes I know it wasn´t pretty but do you have any advice of how to do it better , if yes good ,if no he/she can keep on talking to themselves cus I´m not listening.
and there some people which I trust so no questions.

AM67

[mikkey 0]

I don't mind it - as long it does not come from a 100-jump wonder who is quite crappy himself. That pisses me off......

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[PhreeZone 20]

How about 500 jump wonders that are full of themselves? I give way too much advice normally, but I'll be the first to show you tape of me wiping out and stuff too.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wmw999 2,588]

I'll agree that women tend to get more advice than men. I find that an "I see" usually answers. It doesn't cost me much to listen for a minute or two, and if it goes on much longer, I'll figure something else out.

I can assure you that getting older helps with this, too
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

At what point is it OK to to tell someone you don't know (or do know, for that matter), what you think they should do?

My opinion...never tell someone else what they should do. That's never responded to well. However, some thing I might do is if I see someone fresh off student status getting ready to jump when it's too windy for me. I might say something like, "Hey, when you get down could you let me know how the winds are, they look too gusty for me."

[wmw999 2,588]

Quote

At what point is it OK to to tell someone you don't know (or do know, for that matter), what you think they should do?

My mom-secret is to only give advice when:
a. the need is imminent and danger is involved (don't run out into the street)
b. when there is absolutely no need for it, and then present it as information that you assume the person is intelligent enough to use when they do need the information.

You might still not like their decision when the time comes, but you know they have the information you think they need. Advice given at the moment usually provides an opportunity for conflict or opposition.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Tonto 1]

Hi Jessica - tricky.

When I graduate an AFF student, I tell them to listen, and to find mentors.

Problem with that of course, is that everyone is talking, and the mentors are busy.

So, the next step is to get people to qualify themselves. Are they JM's, I's AFF I's, TM's, riggers (Groundmonkeys - like that... Can I use it?) Do they train with a team? What's their competition record like? Do demo's?

Henry Ford said "You cannot build a reputation on what you are going to do." And so you can tell if someone has an idea if they know what they are talking about.


"Your Hornet is a PISA Shit. Ha Ha"
Are you a rigger? Why is it a PISA shit?

"er.. It's made in Africa... by Monkeys! HaHa."

Really? On an ISO 9000:2000 certified production line that was deemed so good that Aerodyne felt justified in throwing a small fortune into making it the spot all their canopies and harnesses would be built at for their new company?

Or, if you're tired or bored "Oh, Fuck off you bigoted bastard."

Try and put people into a position where they can justify their point of view. One of the principles of learning is to justify why the knowledge is needed.

I think being female might also have something to do with it. As a rule (and being an emotional coward - like most men) I won't say little stuff about gear to a woman - cos guys are all over her all the time about everything - so they must have covered it, right? If it's safety critical - of course I say something - but then it doesn't really fall into the category you refer to.

Skydivers are tribal. There is a distinct "elder" pecking order, and the "alpha males" (Who can be female) of the clans rule. At our DZ we have Tribal leaders for FS, CReW, Freefly, Swooping, AFF, camera etc. Some are masters of several tribes (Freefly-camera-swoop tribe leader) Our currency tribe leader is female - with 980 dives last year - weekends only - and she is also chief coach - Me? I'm tribal elder and wise one. Cos I've been to lots of "gathering of the tribes" (That's Nationals) and a "gathering of the supertribes" (That's a world meet) as well as having done a bit of everything over the last 18 years - including break myself.

Being in this sport, we have developed a reverence for gear which is almost superstitious or religious in its intensity. We believe - because Joe survived - that Joe's gear was the best. Or because Joe's gear was built by your super tribe. (country) The Reflex is a "death rig" probably because of the catapult - but people won't ask if you've converted to a regular freebag, do they?

We are an organised group of mammals. Some tension always exists in the group as the young and the strong struggle to find their place and seek power within the group.

Read "The Human Zoo" by Desmond Morris. It explains a lot about why people are the way they are.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[jmidgley 0]

The trick is, look puzzled and confused for a moment, allow a theatrical frown to furrow your brow, then look brighter and happier, as though you've just worked out something that was troubling you, and say the words 'hold on, you're confusing me with someone who gives a f*ck'.

You shouldn't have any further trouble.

HTH
John

[flyhi 24]

Quote

When I offer advice I like to start the conversation with a question, or series of questions..."How long have you been jumping a Reflex? Are you happy with it? You know, I'm a rigger and I think..."

The aviation industry conducts training (we do it annually) called Crew Resource Management (CRM). This technique is called Advocacy by Inquiry and is very effective as it does not make the listener defensive, initially. The best example that happened to a friend of mine () was when his copilot asked, "Would this be a good time to put the wheels up?"

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[jlmiracle 7]

I experienced all that "unsolicited advice" as a newbie. I have a batwing and used to jump it alot. I was given that same great advice, "your gonna die under that, what a piece of crap", etc. then I said, "How many jumps to you have on a batwing?". He walked away.

End of last season, a guy just off AFF came up to me and said "I know PD makes the best canopies, what size would you think I should get". (I jump a saphire). I explained to him that every person has their own opinion on which is the better canopy. I said there is nothing wrong with PD, but I prefer my canopy. He had only jumped PD canopies during his AFF.

People who don't know any better are usually the ones to give you unsolicited advice.

I don't give advice, I give my opinion and only when asked. I don't give opinions on anything I don't know about. I've never jumped a Hornet but I can tell you who to ask who has (and by the way he like it).

In my opinion, best way to handle those unsolicited advice givers, is just smile and nod.
Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PhreeZone 20]

>In my opinion, best way to handle those unsolicited advice givers, is just smile and nod

How can one apply this to the fourms? There are a lot of newbies giving canopy advice that should'nt be...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,116]

>>In my opinion, best way to handle those unsolicited advice givers, is just smile and nod

>How can one apply this to the fourms? There are a lot of newbies
> giving canopy advice that should'nt be...

Read, smile and nod. I think most people can tell the difference between a 100 jump wonder giving advice and someone with a bit more experience.

[bmcd308 0]

>>I don't give advice, I give my opinion and only when asked. <<

Alright, let's turn this around. Referring to a previous post, you're a "tribal leader" at our dropzone, right? You're an AFF-I, you were probably a JM on at least one jump for most of the low-timers out there, you've done some high-profile big-way stuff, and you're conspicuous among the up-jumpers in that you land into the wind after not turning below some fairly intelligent altitude.

Given that the lower jump-number folks see and recognize all this, do you have some ongoing obligation to share what you know? If I persuade Ben to let me jump his canopy and you are aware of it, would you feel like you should say something?

How about if I convince Mullins to let me demo a Nitron 150?

How about if Kevin, Jackie, Trent, Bentley and I want to take Steven on a sit jump?

You don't really have to answer all those, I just want to chime in that with under 200 jumps, I'd rather listen to lots of crap from all different kinds of people and have to sort it out by talking to those I trust (like you) than to have people feel like "if that's the way he routes his bridle, then more power to him" because they're afraid of my thinking they have a big ego.

My point is that if you're going to draw a line, I'd rather have my time "wasted" by well-intentioned people with big egos than to have those same well-intentioned people standing around my crater saying "you know, I thought about telling him about that, but I didn't want to offend him."

BMcD...

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Vallerina 2]

Well, I already pmed you, but I'll make a quick post here anyways.

I don't mind unsolicited advice. I don't mind hearing, "Hey, you may want to think about these flying characteristics before you decide to purchase that canopy." I have no problem hearing that. I do have a problem hearing, "What? Why on earth are you jumping that? Don't you know that it's old technology?" Hearing "old technology" really does nothing for me. When they insult me for not researching enough (which I've done a considerable amount of) and then having nothing solid to back up their opinion (which shows that they've never done their research), I get mad, but I just sigh out loud and roll my eyes (I don't smile and not very well.)

You also have to look at the source. If they want you to buy their stuff, then they might insult a different manufacturer. (Quick note here....I have to give "props" to Brian Germain from being completely opposite of that....a few people were trying to convince me to get a Lotus, and I said, "No, thanks!" Brian walked up and said, "Do you like what you have? Does it fly well for you?" I answered, "Yes!" and he said, "Then keep it!!!!")

It just all goes back to ego, I think....

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[jlmiracle 7]

If I find out you want to jump Ben's canopy and you don't ask my opinion, I will go get someone who will offer theirs.

You see Brent, I don't have to worry about you. You've already figured out most of the bad shit that can and will happen.

I have never jumped a Nitron, but have been told by people that have, they fly/land big, so, IMMHO, I would recommend you jump a 170 something a few times first before trying the 150, and I would jump the 150 on a day with some wind (10ish mph). But once again this is just my opinion. If its a canopy question, all I can share are my experiences, and what I have seen and what I know of the jumper.

OMG, I am just babbling. I have to go back to work.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.