Need Advice

[zonie 0]

I want to buy a rig in July with docile parachutes, with a skyhook, planning on getting it from Deland, FL & talking to a salesman right now. Other than this I dont know what I want, brand, ect., but Im focusing on reliablility. Any advice?

[skybytch 273]

AFAIK if you want a skyhook you'll have to buy a Vector 3.

Everything on the market is reliable up to the point of shit happening.

Better to do some research and have a basic idea of what you want before talking to a salesperson...

[trigger 0]

Nearly,probably,almost definately every canopy manufacturer produces a canopy for your needs.If you can try and demo a suitable size PD sillohette or sabre/sabre2.Icurus safire2 etc etc

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[zonie 0]

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AFAIK if you want a skyhook you'll have to buy a Vector 3.

Everything on the market is reliable up to the point of shit happening.

Better to do some research and have a basic idea of what you want before talking to a salesperson...

Yea, I just talked to someone at Deland and thats what they told me, told me a Vector-3 was pretty reliable and had a lot of safety features, sounded pretty good. I saw an advertisement on it in the Breakaway video from Deland, FL.

Forgot to ask them a price range. Im thinking maybe take a riggers course before committing to anything, cause I dont know shit.

[skybytch 273]

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Im thinking maybe take a riggers course before committing to anything, cause I dont know shit.

A rigger's course is a great thing to do, but you don't need to take one to figure out what gear will be right for you.

I doubt you'd be unhappy with any of the containers on the US market (don't have any knowledge about the market outside the US so my comments apply only to what is available in the US). Things to think about when deciding which brand include price (base price - not including options - range from $900 to over $1400), delivery time (current range is from 6 to 22 weeks; a Vector3 would take about 12 weeks), and which one you like the look of the most. imho you can't go wrong with an RWS product - they've been doing this a long time and they're pretty damn good at what they do, but there are others out there too if you want to spend less or get your gear faster.

For your main I'd suggest checking out the Spectre, Triathlon, Sabre2, Safire2 and Pilot if you're buying new; add the Sabre, Safire and Hornet to that list if you're looking at used. For sizing on the main, talk to your instructors - they're the ones who've seen you landing a parachute. Knowing only that this will be your first rig I'd suggest going no smaller in square footage than your exit weight in pounds - i.e. if your exit weight is 170 then no smaller than 170 sq ft would be a good starting point.

Same thing on sizing for your reserve - you want to be confident that you can put it into someone's backyard, in no wind, at sunset. Personally I like PD reserves but they are expensive. Other brands to look at include the Smart from Aerodyne and the Raven-M from Precision.

Spend a few minutes looking over various gear manufacturer and dealer websites - there's a good list of links here. Of course I recommend that you buy gear here.... There are also some articles on how to choose your gear here.

Good luck!

[zonie 0]

Whats astonishing here is the delivery time, for the Vector-3 youre talking about 3 months? Wow. The base price is better than I expected.

Thanks for the info, so I can see this is a pretty major undertaking which is going to require some time, so I guess I can plan around it. I dont want to continue on with training unless Im jumping my own equipment, to me that is the only way to go. Using someone elses used equipment must be like buying someone elses' used car, you never know what youre going to get.

Still pretty hyped up about it though and want to go for it, got a real good feeling about it.

[Amazon 7]

Delivery times go down drastically after the summer when the jumping gets weathered in over most of the USA. I have a feeling most people in the skydive gear manufaturing business are skydivers and like most of us would rather be jumping rather than sitting over an industrial sewing machine while outside its warm and there are blue skies....I managed to get my Velocity Infinity in just 2 weeks.. but that was during the yucky wet cold days of March the perma-drizzle season....in Seattle. You may want to invest in a serviceable used Container-Harness/Reserve/Main/Cypres for now... then you will have a backup rig to use later when you do buy your new gear. And as you have surmised already you will pay for it and its yours.. instead of paying for the rentals and buying it for someone else.

Amazon

[skybytch 273]

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I dont want to continue on with training unless Im jumping my own equipment

How many jumps have you done? Few dz's are going to let you jump anything but a student-specific rig until you're done with your student jumps. Once you're off student status you're going to want a sport rig, not a student rig, so it makes more sense to use (abuse ) the dz's gear and not jump your own 'til after you graduate.

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Using someone elses used equipment must be like buying someone elses' used car, you never know what youre going to get.

Not at all. You can have a rigger check out used gear you are interested in; if it's not safe to jump or needs repairs they'll tell you. Used gear can save you bucks on your initial purchase - bucks that can go toward jumps instead of shiny new gear.

You're likely to biff at least a few of your first 100 or so landings. Trust me - it really, really, really sucks when you blow it and end up getting a scuff or scratch or even a grass stain on your brand new $1500 container - kinda like that first scratch on your new car. It's not quite as painful if the container is used; heck, what's another scuff/scratch/grass stain?

I strongly advise looking for a used main for your first rig. Just like a new car loses value as you drive it off the lot, a new main loses value when you put the first jump on it. You'll likely put no more than 200-300 jumps on your first main before you're ready to downsize; buy it used and let someone else take that $100-400 "first jump" hit.

Keep reading and asking questions.

[Amazon 7]

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You're likely to biff at least a few of your first 100 or so landings. Trust me - it really, really, really sucks when you blow it and end up getting a scuff or scratch or even a grass stain on your brand new $1500 container - kinda like that first scratch on your new car. It's not quite as painful if the container is used; heck, what's another scuff/scratch/grass stain?

Yeah you should see the nice big grass stain I put on my new as of April pretty red and white rig last weekend on a no wind landing..... WAAAAAAAAHHHH

Amazon

Sitting here in the freakin rain wishing I had the Good Stuff DVD and Crosswinds to watch...Guess I will have to watch Cutaway again....hint hint Lisa

[zonie 0]

That all sounds like pretty sound advice, the only problem with it is that Im not a "sound" individual. Im afraid of flying in commercial aircraft because of what few accidents there are, same with skydiving. I wanted to give it up because of the paranoia and risk involved, just didnt think I could handle it over the long haul.

The thing that makes me feel a lot more secure about skydiving is my own equipment, and the skyhook which makes RSL a lot less risky. To put it in short, I was thinking skydiving is just too risky for me. BUT, when I take a look at the possiblility of myh own equipment, safety feature, docile parachutes, skyhook RSL, I look at that and feel a surge of confidence about it, to the point where I want to do it without having to push myself to doing it.

I havent even started AFF yet, but I can go to AFF-1 without any problem (other than the usual "door opening" paranoia). Ive been through the training class at another smaller DZ, and thought it was inadequate for handling emergencies. They didnt even address what happens when a cutaway becomes unstable.

The attitude was, well, skydving is dangerous and you can get killed. But Im not ready to get killed, so everything Im saying here is about me being extremely defensive about it, yet really, really wanting to continue skydiving. The fact is, I love this shit, but I am not prepared to take certain risks.

Now you had some great advice, dont get me wrong, but this is where Im comming from. Im not going to be much good at skydiving unless I gain more confidence. But this is what does it. Insert the word "used" and I start getting paranoid again. This is all a very big mind game, and Im not in control of my mind.

By the way, when you say $1500, are you talking about just a container? I thought that was the container, reserve and main, ect.

The AFFs are going to cost, I was thinking of starting the first ones even though I may have to take a long break in between jumps, time and money factor, so Im disputing with myself whether to start or wait until I can get through it without any long breaks. What do you think?

[wmw999 2,584]

Skydiving is a really big sport to use to conquer a fear of losing control (which this sounds like partly). It's like jumping into a pool to get over a fear of water.

That said, it can be done. But no matter what gear you have, you'll have to trust it.

Can I suggest that you take some time as soon as possible to go visit one of the local riggers (be smart, pick the one everyone thinks highly of, and who also likes visiting). Watch him work, ask questions. Bring a six-pack to share at the end of the evening for the extra time of his (or hers) you're taking.

A few nights getting to know parachutes will help. They're just things. Really. Make sure he understands you're trying to conquer your fear through understanding. It's one of the harder ways to conquer it, but in the long run it's the best.

Don't buy any gear until you can trust gear that a rigger has signed off. And ask the rigger where he'd take his mother if she wanted to jump.

I'll tell you, though. My dad (85 and legally blind) made his first jump a few weeks ago. I was going to take him to a DZ where I knew more of the instructors, but I ended up not being able to. He was treated very well -- treated like I expected my father to be treated. Most reputable DZs are like that. And most of them have a geek instructor who thinks about things like "what if you go unstable during a cutaway" (well, it might have been the words you used, because it's a standard scenario).

What do you do? You pull your reserve anyway. As a student, no one wants you to judge how high you are after a cutaway before deciding to pull the reserve. You don't decide, you just do it.

Feel free to PM me if you want to. This really is a brave thing you're doing.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Jib 0]

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By the way, when you say $1500, are you talking about just a container? I thought that was the container, reserve and main, ect.

Nope, the list price of a NEW Vector III container with Skyhook is $1720. (no stainless, no rings, basic colors, etc). Canopies and cypress are separate. BTW you shouldn't pay list price.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[zonie 0]

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By the way, when you say $1500, are you talking about just a container? I thought that was the container, reserve and main, ect.

Nope, the list price of a NEW Vector III container with Skyhook is $1720. (no stainless, no rings, basic colors, etc). Canopies and cypress are separate. BTW you shouldn't pay list price.

How do you keep from paying list price? Deland told me to go to the Square 2 shop at Eloy to order one, would they be asking list price I wonder? Im anxious to find out about that. If the entire process is going to be several months, they should be able to take a deposit.

[Amazon 7]

Look on the websites for Square One and some of the other gear stores. SHOP around.. you will see varying prices. And then there are sales on different items at differing times.

Amazon

[zonie 0]

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What do you do? You pull your reserve anyway. As a student, no one wants you to judge how high you are after a cutaway before deciding to pull the reserve. You don't decide, you just do it.
Wendy W.

Are you serious? Thats not hard thing to do, but if you get tangled up in the reserve, well that reserve is your last hope. The thing I was worried about are spins and high speed mals, where you can go temporarily unstable or flip over.

I dont know whether to be concerned with it with student parachute openings, what worries me is the high speed mals, horseshoe mals, pilot hesitation, not throwing it out right, unstable position, ect.

Im not really too too nervous about AFF-1, two instructors holding on to you, and Ive already got pretty stable body position, so not too much to worry about. The real worries are how far I can go after that.

You know, when I think about it, I feel like Im actually going to be less nervous jumping with my own chute than on tandem, I dont know why. Maybe it is because the first time was tandem from a Cessna and that scared the crap out of me. I dont know man, Im weird. I mean, really.

Thx for the support! Ill PM you.

[skybytch 273]

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The attitude was, well, skydving is dangerous and you can get killed. But Im not ready to get killed, so everything Im saying here is about me being extremely defensive about it, yet really, really wanting to continue skydiving. The fact is, I love this shit, but I am not prepared to take certain risks.

It's a sad truth in this sport - you can do everything right, make the safest decisions and own the safest gear, and still get injured or die. Shit happens and sometimes even the best gear and the best training aren't enough. That's the big risk you need to accept.

Other than true accidents like above you can control the amount of risk you're taking in a number of ways. Choosing a light wingloading (canopy size equal or bigger than your exit weight) and a less aggressive main, having an AAD, choosing who's going to repack your reserve for you, not jumping when it's windy or turbulent, learning to fly your canopy to it's maximum... the list can go on and on.

If you're worried about poor training or student equipment at a dz you're considering jumping at, check out all the dz's in your area. Talk to their graduates. Observe how the instructors interact with the students. Watch the students landings. Talk to as many people at each dz as possible. Talk to the chief instructor and let him/her know your concerns. I'll bet you'll find at least one place where you'll be comfortable with the quality of both the training and the equipment they'll have you use.

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Im not going to be much good at skydiving unless I gain more confidence.
This is all a very big mind game, and Im not in control of my mind.

Something that is really cool about this sport is the more you do it, the more confidence you gain - in the gear, in your abilities, and most of all in your life in general.

You need to talk to Michele. Have you read about her student progression? Check it out - read all the ones posted in 2001 by Michele Lesser.

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By the way, when you say $1500, are you talking about just a container? I thought that was the container, reserve and main, ect.

You can expect to pay around $1500 for a new container with a few options, $1200+ for a new main, $700+ for a new reserve and $1200-ish for a new Cypres2 AAD.

That's for sport equipment. Student containers have a bunch more extra cost options.

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The AFFs are going to cost, I was thinking of starting the first ones even though I may have to take a long break in between jumps, time and money factor, so Im disputing with myself whether to start or wait until I can get through it without any long breaks. What do you think?

Wait and save. You'll do better with the mind games if you can afford to do your student jumps over a short time period.

[zonie 0]

Shit, I need to worry about money is what I need to be worrying about. This is going to take a while, a long while, unless there is some way to get a loan, so it looks like around 4000. That could be a long time or never at the rate Im going. I knew skydiving was expensive but thats a killer.

If I cant afford it then I must not be making enough money because I see a lot of other people doing it.

As far as the risk, there is a certain amout of it I am pretty comfortable with, it gets to the point where youre going to die of something someday, but there is like you said a lot of ways to control it, so the reason I like the skyhook.

From the way things look right now, if I go through AFF, get through it, then after that Im screwed because I cant afford my own equipment. Now that really sucks, but I can say I learned skydiving. Maybe you can rent a rig for the day but I wont be jumping what I want in equipment.

Now Im thinking I need to put it off till I save up enough to go the whole distance. I dont like that either, but what can you do? Feel like I want to just go rob a bank or something.

[Jimbo 0]

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If I cant afford it then I must not be making enough money because I see a lot of other people doing it.

What makes you think that everyone else can afford it? You might be surprised at the sacrifices some of us make to skydive.

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Maybe you can rent a rig for the day but I wont be jumping what I want in equipment.

How do you know? You haven't made a single jump yet so I'm going to suggest that you really don't know what you want. Bigger gear stores should have a decent selection of mains and containers too. You might put 1 jump on the V3 and decide you don't care for it at all. Demo, demo, demo, is the name of the game when it comes to gear in this sport.

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Feel like I want to just go rob a bank or something.

Be sure and let us know how that works out, I could use some spare change myself.
-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[zonie 0]

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If I cant afford it then I must not be making enough money because I see a lot of other people doing it.

What makes you think that everyone else can afford it? You might be surprised at the sacrifices some of us make to skydive.

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Maybe you can rent a rig for the day but I wont be jumping what I want in equipment.

How do you know? You haven't made a single jump yet so I'm going to suggest that you really don't know what you want. Bigger gear stores should have a decent selection of mains and containers too. You might put 1 jump on the V3 and decide you don't care for it at all. Demo, demo, demo, is the name of the game when it comes to gear in this sport.

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Feel like I want to just go rob a bank or something.

Be sure and let us know how that works out, I could use some spare change myself.
-
Jim

I dont know WHAT I want, story of my life. Whatever the case, Im going to put in a few AFF jumps and then go from there, one day at a time. Demo is a great idea, Ill start there and see what goes on. Good deal!

How many people in this world can afford anything they do?

[Amazon 7]

Zonie.... at this point you have to think of ways to make this happen with a compromise...renting gear will get you thru the training.. you do not have to do everything and buy everything at once. Get the training a step at a time.... I was in the USAF when I started jumping and was making around 350 dollars a month before taxes. Jumps were about $5 to 7500 for a 30 second.....I went to jump school just to get an extra $55 a month.... care to guess where I spent all that extra money. I packed rigs for people.. I sewed stuff for people and still spent way more than I should have.

Again. if you can....... buy some GOOD used gear(checked out by a rigger you trust) it will get you jumping once you are cleared off your DZ's student gear. at 10 to 20 per jump that adds up and pays for your own gear. Look online.. there are plenty of sites that offer used gear. Talk with Ralph at Western Parachute Sales in Oregon.. Or Square One's Used gear area...or plenty of others, do not get in a rush. Get the training FIRST.... you are just starting out and with any endeavor in life.... learn all you can. There is nothing that says you cant be getting confidence and experience and have some fun along the way too.

Oh.... and as far as how dangerous skydiving is....yes.... its dangerous and good people die who have done everything right. You need to practice your emergency procedures constantly. I run thru possible scenarios and my cutaway sequence on the way up in the airplane. You will not know how you will react in a given situation till you come up against that situation... hence practice in your mind what you are going to do.....over and over so you are mentally prepared for the possible eventualities.
The GOOD news is its VERY VERY infrequent. But things do happen... heck.... you could take a bite of a nice big hunk of pizza while you are sitting at the computer and start choking to death..... have you thought of an emergency procedure for that????

Amazon

Look up a self administered Heimlich maneuver

[Michele 1]

Hey, Zonie...

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I dont know WHAT I want, story of my life.

Well, if you know that you don't know what you want, perhaps you might want to figure that out first?

Like where to live...La Jolla, or Arizona, Timbuktu...or is skydiving for you, or would perhaps, uh, I dunno, surfing be better?

How about getting through AFF at a reliable DZ, such as Eloy, and then making a decision if you are going to stay with the sport, and then thinking about what kind of gear you want?

Besides, are you going to be jumping your own gear during AFF? Look, if you're not gonna stay with the sport, you will be investing a lot of money that you don't need to. Say you're sstylin with a Mirage...but decide you like a Javelin better after you decide what you want....or perhaps you've decided on a Sabre2, but then think you should be in a Spectre...or what if you want to freefly instead of do comptetive RW?

Just some things to think about...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 3,107]

>The thing that makes me feel a lot more secure about skydiving is my
>own equipment, and the skyhook which makes RSL a lot less risky. To
>put it in short, I was thinking skydiving is just too risky for me. BUT,
>when I take a look at the possiblility of myh own equipment, safety
>feature, docile parachutes, skyhook RSL, I look at that and feel a
>surge of confidence about it, to the point where I want to do it
>without having to push myself to doing it.

I can understand that feeling, but consider the following:

A rig with 100 jumps on it and one reserve ride is actually a bit safer than brand new gear. Problems with new gear are rare but sometimes happen. Used gear has been tested. A four year old Javelin, one that has had its closing loop grommet reset and soft housings replaced, is actually safer than it was when it was new.

The skyhook is a relatively new piece of hardware. It may save you under some conditions; it may also cause problems under other conditions. We don't have a lot of field data yet to see what sort of saves _and_ what sort of problems will result from its use. That's not just the risk of a Skyhook; that's a risk with any very-new piece of equipment. The FXC, for example, was touted as a great lifesaving device, but was not reliable enough for experienced jumpers. Same with the Sentinel. It wasn't until the Cypres was introduced that experienced jumpers started using them in a big way, because Cypreses misfire much, much less often than the other AAD's out there - but it took a few years before people realized that. Sometimes it pays to _not_ have the newest gear on the DZ.

[billbooth 10]

Please call Relative Workshop for current delivery times for Vectors. The last time I asked, it was 6-8 weeks.

[freakydiver 0]

Honestly - you are worrying too much IMHO. Driving in a car to the DZ is an order of a magnitude more dangerous than skydiving is. Skydiving has a perceived large rish that really isn't nearly as large as it is perceived to be (does that make any sense LOL)...

And BTW - I worked three jobs to put myself through AFF and into my first kit. Plus once you have your first license, all you have to do is stay current which is like one jump a month (or is it 60 days???)... As everyone is saying here, your confidence will increase every instant you spend on the DZ, in the air, playing with your rig and canopy, etc...

Good luck to you.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --