CYPRES debates - my theory

[321seeya 0]

I jump with a cypres, and I STILL look at every safety issue I can possibly imagine. If you read the cypres ad's it says it the best..."Set it and forget it" Thats what I do...I forget it is in there!...It is up to me to save my own life...and I have and will continue to do so.

In the pre Cypress days there was more and less to deal with....Sure you had shitty equipment, but you also did not have big ways, freeflying, tracking dives, hell you didnt even have people jumping together...
With the new age of Skydiving the dangers of shitty gear have been replaced with the added dangers of close proximity flying and faster fall rates.
The only time I will expect my cypres to do it's job is if I am unconscience. It might be the plane that knocks me out or another jumper...1000 jumps or a student,.... at pull time it doesnt matter what happened.
Modern day AAD's are MUCH safer than the earlier models that fell in the category of shitty gear.
All this aside, I have blue skies above me, I think Ill go jump now.

Blue skies and Bright Beer lights!
DJ

BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE!
Free the soul -- DJ

[freakydiver 0]

"The ONLY thing that matters to me and me only at that moment that I find myself going through 750' without a canopy is - "Cypres, do your job."

The only thing you are thinking when passing through 750 without anything above your head is Cypress Do Your Job? No offense but IMHO that type of thinking will surely lead you down the hard road rather than the one where you will be able to jump another day. How about thinking, SILVER.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[nightjumps 1]

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The ONLY thing that matters to me and me only at that moment that I find myself going through 750' without a canopy is - "Cypres, do your job."

The only thing you are thinking when passing through 750 without anything above your head is Cypress Do Your Job? No offense but IMHO that type of thinking will surely lead you down the hard road rather than the one where you will be able to jump another day. How about thinking, SILVER

Oh, c'mon... you knew I meant that figuratively and not literally. I'm probably not thinking about anything. I'm probably out cold.

[freakydiver 0]

Nah not really - a) didn't look at yer profile and b) have heard that said before more than once.

Looking at yer profile, I know get the figurative speech heh!

Anyhow - blue ones!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[nightjumps 1]

And ya know... yer probably right. I should speak with more clarity in the public forum. Sure as shit, somone will read that and think... "Ya know... if I haven't done anything by a 1000', I read where all I have to do is wait for my cypres to fire."

Shame on me too, Brother.

[freakydiver 0]

Sheeeeet - no shame on noone!

Although I've heard it twice in my ten years in the sport, odds are small, but hell, we are all skydivers, so aren't we odd?

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Scrumpot 1]

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So back to the topic at hand, I really don't understand why all of a sudden there is this massive debate on the merits of using a Cypres. A woman is alive today because she jumps with one. Yet she's being criticized by some because she exited the airplane wrong, konked here head on the elevator, got knocked out and was saved by a $1000 device. Come on people, stop judging each other and try accepting people for who they are. This shouldn't be such a big deal as long as the person isn't harming anyone else.

That's not "judging" anyone Steve. That's merely examining the ROOT CAUSE of the incident at hand!! If you can not objectively examine the root cause and attempt to come to an understanding of what caused the incident itself ----(which had NOTHING TO DO with whether she had the Cypres or not), you will have no basis for potentially LEARNING SOMETHING FROM IT either. So, we are to ignore what happened and what can potentially be leraned from it JUST BECAUSE the Cypres saved her too? See where I am going with this?

I don't think that examining the events themselves which lead to this Cypres fire necessarily need to be looked at as "BASHING" at all? Why do you? It is OTHERS who turned this into a Cypres debate ...On that we (apparently) agree. If she didn't hit the tail in the 1st place we probably wouldn't even be talking about her Cypres here at all, right? I think it is all the Cypres debate that is in reality instead what is demeaning to this jumper, because you are then doing her (and others) NO GOOD, by saying merely ..."Oh good ---you were saved by your Cypres -now go forth & jump in bliss some more." Without learning something! ---What if next time her Cypres FAILS???

---Avoid (or learn to reduce the chances of) the INCIDENT (the tail strike) first, or doom yourself to potentially just repeat it. Maybe next time without the same FORTUNATE outcome!! Then, who Steve, by saying NOTHING does THAT (respectfully) serve??

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Trent 0]

I jump a Cypres. I have jumped without it. My gear will always have an AAD. To see so much debate over this perplexes me. You guys are going around in circles, and have been for years!
--"AAD's suck because people think they can depend on them and will do stupid things"
--"AAD's rock because it might save me if I, for some reason, cannot."
--"Well, if you didn't have one... maybe you'd find a way to save yourself or not put yourself in that position!"

I like the fact that I just might have a second chance if I am unconcious or have both arms incapacitated. The fact that I have an AAD in NO WAY increases the chance that I may be knocked out or have my arms dislocate. Do I depend on it? Yes, the same way I depend on my reserve: If I need it, I hope to God it works. Why not give yourself the extra advantage?

I've seen a few Cypres saves and I am thankful that those people are ALIVE today, despite any mistakes they have made that led to the incident. If you won't jump one, fine. You think that a situation where you need an AAD won't happen? That's like thinking that you'll never have a cutaway, it just might happen for one reason or another. No one in this sport has a 0% chance of ever needing an AAD. Given all that... I choose to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible.

The choice is personal and always will be. Do whatever makes you feel good about yourself.

Oh, hello again!

[Scrumpot 1]

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I jump a Cypres. I have jumped without it. My gear will always have an AAD. To see so much debate over this perplexes me. You guys are going around in circles, and have been for years!
--"AAD's suck because people think they can depend on them and will do stupid things"
--"AAD's rock because it might save me if I, for some reason, cannot."
--"Well, if you didn't have one... maybe you'd find a way to save yourself or not put yourself in that position!"

By all means, ...HAVE ONE! It's your CHOICE (it's mine too, BTW).

But just don't forget, or neglect to EXAMINE (when an incident does occur) the other RELEVANT safety considerations (or issues) otherwise JUST BECAUSE YOU DO HAVE ONE!! ...They are ONLY a device, and devices CAN fail.

Practice good judgement, obtained either through experience, or good training plus consideration and PRACTICE ...and also exhaust ALL your options (either before, or to prevent) accidents in the first place and/or even going in! One (having a Cypres) is definitely not an acceptable substitute for the other, is all I am saying.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,078]

>In the pre Cypress days there was more and less to deal with....Sure
> you had shitty equipment, but you also did not have big ways,
> freeflying, tracking dives, hell you didnt even have people jumping
> together...

Wow! Are you serious? The 144-way was done in 1988; it wasn't broken until 1992, with the 200-way - and most people on that dive didn't have cypreses; they were still too new. Roger Nelson coined the term freak flying in 1978, which was flying in any position not belly to earth (primarily sit.) It was done by a lot of people in the sport for a while until 4-way RW got to be the new cool thing. In 1990, 8 way teams were turning 14 points in time, using full face helmets and booties. Heck, jumpers were jumping with wingsuits (and getting good horizontal drive) in _1936_.

Cypres was not introduced until 1991. It did not 'allow' anything new; just let people do what they have always done with one more backup. Contrary to some newer jumper's beliefs, we really didn't invent skydiving in the last 15 years, just improved upon the basics that have been there for a long, long time.

[skymedic 0]

I do not fall into your theory...as I started jumping march of 2001 and have made my last 100+ jumps with no AAD.....and will probably one day get one...but feel my currency will save me before my cypres ever will get the chance too.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[321seeya 0]

OK OK..I should have said in Pre AAD days....When skydiving started...
My point was NOW there is more chance of getting knocked out if someone corks, or something else happens....there is more to deal with in the air now.
Cypre advantages FAR out way the disadvantages.

BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE!
Free the soul -- DJ

[cssriggers 0]

There are clearly two sides to this debate, and the two sides start out with such different axioms that I'm not sure they can be reconciled by logic and debate.

But we're not just wanking off here - it sure doesn't hurt to talk about it, and exchange opinions. And IMO there's nothing in this sport that could EVER be "solved" by logic and debate. The skydiving world is filled with strong personalities and opinions.

Just a thought - for all those who think that a lot of current skydivers should never have become skydivers because of a bad attitude towards personal responsibilty for keeping themselves alive, how do you account for the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years?

First off, I'd ask you to define this statement - "the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years".

I guess maybe you're talking about the dramatic decrease in student fatalities, and the steep decline in "no/low pulls" vs the increase in landing fatalities? Or maybe, the number of people jumping out of airplanes vs. the number getting injured or killed.

My answer to both: Better gear, better instruction, tandems, RSLs, and AADs.

I don't think there's any question that the sport has gotten safer (low turns/high performance landings excepted.)

So you see - even if we fundamentally disagree in theory on the stuff in your original post, there's a lot we can agree on.
-John

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[kallend 2,107]

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Just a thought - for all those who think that a lot of current skydivers should never have become skydivers because of a bad attitude towards personal responsibilty for keeping themselves alive, how do you account for the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years?

First off, I'd ask you to define this statement - "the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years".

I guess maybe you're talking about the dramatic decrease in student fatalities, and the steep decline in "no/low pulls" vs the increase in landing fatalities? Or maybe, the number of people jumping out of airplanes vs. the number getting injured or killed.

I meant the latter - which is highlighted in red.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,078]

>My point was NOW there is more chance of getting knocked out if
>someone corks, or something else happens....

That's one of the strongest arguments _against_ cypres usage I've seen so far. If you are doing something nowadays that means you're more likely to get knocked out, for god sakes man - don't do it! Your cypres will not always save you from a cork - but avoiding jumps where they are a risk always will.

And yes, that means sometimes turning down jumps that are marginal, even if everyone else is doing them.

>there is more to deal with in the air now.

Big way zoo loads, freak flying and stupid skydiver tricks were going on in 1991 as often as they go on today. I was there. Nothing's basically different today.

>Cypre advantages FAR out way the disadvantages.

As long as it does not encourage you to participate in skydives you otherwise would not participate in, I agree.

[pds 0]

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I do not fall into your theory...as I started jumping march of 2001 and have made my last 100+ jumps with no AAD.....and will probably one day get one...but feel my currency will save me before my cypres ever will get the chance too.

im pretty sure they areny talking about the 'silent minority' of people who simply do not wear an aad and mind they own damn bidness.

my student jumps were equipped with sentinal mk2000. this was in oct-nov 2002. immediately following my A-card check dive i had the misfortune of witnessing the failure of a mk2000 up close and personal. i don't wear an aad. and i don't wear shoes. most times don't wear a shirt. sometimes don't wear nuthin at all. it's not because i have a problem with cypress, shoes or clothing or that i think im a badass. it's because jumping to me is about freedom, expression and responsibility. i know what will happen if i don't pull ONTIME and fly my ass to the ground. i stay aware of the type and composition of jumps i participate in, maintain my equipment, review EPS every day i jump and then put it all back where it belongs just under the surface and enjoy the jump.

i'm just a pup around these parts but some things just seem obvious.

maybe i'll own a cypress in the future, but as it is, i don't even think about not having one as i have never had one.

aads and student rigs is an entirely different thread. coming soon to a forum near you.

namaste, motherfucker.

[cssriggers 0]

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Just a thought - for all those who think that a lot of current skydivers should never have become skydivers because of a bad attitude towards personal responsibilty for keeping themselves alive, how do you account for the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years?

First off, I'd ask you to define this statement - "the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years".

I guess maybe you're talking about the dramatic decrease in student fatalities, and the steep decline in "no/low pulls" vs the increase in landing fatalities? Or maybe, the number of people jumping out of airplanes vs. the number getting injured or killed.

I meant the latter - which is highlighted in red.

This seems to me quite a silly argument in regard to a Cypres, especially in the US (where I live.)

The vast majority of people jumping out of planes in the US are doing tandems. Most of them only do that first jump, and never come back. Do they get a choice of whether or not to have a Cypres? Have tandem Cypreses increased their odds of survival?

IMO, the number of people jumping out of planes vs. the number getting injured or killed -by your definition, including tandems - is immaterial to any meaningful Cypres debate.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot,
JHL

[kallend 2,107]

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Just a thought - for all those who think that a lot of current skydivers should never have become skydivers because of a bad attitude towards personal responsibilty for keeping themselves alive, how do you account for the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years?

First off, I'd ask you to define this statement - "the almost monotonic decline in accident rate over the last 15 years".

I guess maybe you're talking about the dramatic decrease in student fatalities, and the steep decline in "no/low pulls" vs the increase in landing fatalities? Or maybe, the number of people jumping out of airplanes vs. the number getting injured or killed.

I meant the latter - which is highlighted in red.

This seems to me quite a silly argument in regard to a Cypres, especially in the US (where I live.)

The vast majority of people jumping out of planes in the US are doing tandems. Most of them only do that first jump, and never come back. Do they get a choice of whether or not to have a Cypres? Have tandem Cypreses increased their odds of survival?

IMO, the number of people jumping out of planes vs. the number getting injured or killed -by your definition, including tandems - is immaterial to any meaningful Cypres debate.

The numbers decline vs. USPA membership too, not just jump numbers. I doubt many one time tandem passengers join USPA.

Almost anyhow you look at the numbers you have to conclude that jumpers are not killing themselves at the same rate now as they were 15 - 20 years ago when all jumpers had "the right stuff" and none were device dependent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.