Two "Occurences"

[diverdriver 7]

Since "Incidents" forum is for reporting fatalities and serious injuries and neither of these things involved those I will just post them here in General Skydiving Discussion.

This past weekend we had a visiting group of jumpers doing 8 ways. On landing of one jump two jumpers had their endcells brush at about 15 feet. The landing area is about 200 acres. Why must this happen? Several witnesses saw the brush and reported it to DZ officials. When approached, the group denied that any such event happened. They were told anyway to spread out their landings. This group was also the group that felt the DZ policy of getting up at 10K for gear checks wasn't for them and stayed seated while others had to jockey around them to get up and perform their gear checks. I felt this attitude was fairly poor. When I visit another DZ I ask what local policies they have and do my best to comply and "go with the flow".

In another "occurence" a jumper with about 500 jumps visiting landed in the middle of the aircraft ramp area as the plane was pulling in. The pilot (who is one of our training pilots) had to jam the brakes to stop when surprised by the jumper landing about 50 feet in front of him. Winds were stiff at 15 mph by my estimate but smooth and certainly jumpable. He stood there in the ramp trying to collapse his canopy by pulling both toggles together which only reinflated his canopy. Also, he stood up wind of the canopy instead of running downwind of the canopy to help collapse it. What are other DZs teaching these days on how to collapse canopies? Running downwind of the canopy would also have gotten him off the ramp sooner. It took 3 DZ officials (including me) to get him to make an effort to get off the ramp. Once off the ramp I asked why he landed on the ramp with a plane taxiing on. His response "Oh, I saw him". Yah, but maybe he didn't see you! You are going to land 50 feet in front of a twin engine human processor? He said "Well, the winds aren't the best right now." SAY WHAT ?!!! How is that even an acceptable answer for landing in front of a running aircraft? I pointed to all the grass area options he had around him but I don't think it sunk in. Anyone who's been to SDC knows that the aircraft ramp area isn't exactly large compared to all the grass landing area. Landing on the ramp just isn't acceptable.

So, what if either of these "occurences" had turned out differently and SDC had another fatality? How would that be seen to the community? I know the papers would have continued on their "this place isn't safe" parade. And these jumpers looked at me like I was a complete dick head for questioning what they did and pointing out how unsafe THEY had just been. When a DZ official comes up to you and wants to know why you just did what you did you might take the road of learning and just answer the question. The conversation just might save your life one day.

Or are you just too cool for yourself?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[andy2 0]

I like how you pointed out that you always ask DZO's about any special policies that the dz has. I am getting ready to travel around NC and visit as many new DZs as I can, and will remember this. Thats a very responsible thing, and Im sure most DZOs would really appreciate someone being that foward about safety. Thanks for posting this, it got me thinking. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders.

blue skies

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[jlmiracle 7]

Why do people have to be such ass's. It sucks when visiting jumpers can give your DZ a bad reputation.

I screwed up kinda bad once (cut off a porter on landing) when I had less than 100 jumps. Everyone tried nicely to chew my ass, but when the first person told me what I did, I thought I was going to be grounded. I went and apologized to the pilot who was very very nice to me about it and learned that a porter gets down alot faster than an otter or a cessna.

What would any sane jumper have against giving gear checks?

Chris, don't ever stop telling these jumpers if they are screwing up. Eventually you will get someone who will really appreciate the information.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[groovychic 0]

arogant jumpers like the these you spoke of are the ones we eventually read about in the incidents forum. There is no room for arogance or complacency in skydiving. Asking about DZ rules not only shows respect, but also lets others know that you are safty minded. At our DZ, there is no excuse for landing on the runway. it is immediate grounds for grounding. Those guys give the rest of us bad names.

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

arogant jumpers like the these you spoke of are the ones we eventually read about in the incidents forum. There is no room for arogance or complacency in skydiving. Asking about DZ rules not only shows respect, but also lets others know that you are safty minded. At our DZ, there is no excuse for landing on the runway. it is immediate grounds for grounding. Those guys give the rest of us bad names.

And here's the thing about gear checks at 10K.....Someone calls out "UP FOR GEAR CHECKS!" You don't even have to remember the rule. We tell it to you each time. So why can't they get up and just spend some time gear checking their buddy and themselves? I'm sure they do some sort of gear check. But at SDC we choose to do it at 10K. Not getting up when you are the first group out makes it difficult for the others to get up around you to do their checks. I'm glad to say that the local jumpers did it anyway despite the difficulty and did what they were taught to do.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[freakydiver 0]

I may be snooty or whatever, but I'll just never get how people can be such idiots.

Period.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[kallend 2,146]

How about a 1 page handout in large type that manifest can give to visiting jumpers:

THESE ARE OUR PROCEDURES:

Exit order is....

Agree on landing direction prior to boarding the plane.

Helmets and cameras must be secured or worn below 1000ft

Please get up for gear checks at 10k

Left turns only in the pattern

No spiraling below 1,000ft

etc.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 7]

Driver-

Your post sparks fuel for some further discussion.
Perhaps you could outline some proper protocol for aircraft procedure.

As you well know, the airlines have a system in which we all know (or should) the basic program in case of an "Easy Victor"

Could an extra page be added to the waiver describing the conduct to be expected at a particular dropzone in regard to their aircraft?

Even some more detailed discussion here might be beneficial in that awareness will be raised as to the seriousness of this issue.

Interesting thing happen to me recently, I was jumping a demo from a 206 I'd never seen before...

I'm a large, economy size jumper...but performance exit order required me to be in the far back of the aircraft.
For takeoff I put the seatbelt through a carabiner on my harness thus allowing me to lean forward, yet be somewhat anchored.
The other jumpers saw that and thought it was a great idea...they had never seen it before...I've been doing it for 10 years!

At 1000' agl I tapped the Driver and asked if he was ready for me to move aft, he smiled and said yes...telling his regulars to pay attention and learn something.

I gathered that coordinating movement that would effect CG wasn't common practice with them.

A couple of simple things...but somehow along the line, they got lost...

As a pilot...what can I, the jumper do, to make your job easier...and all of us safer?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[usedtajump 1]

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There is no room for arogance or complacency in skydiving. .

Quote

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. . No arrogance in skydiving? Yeah, right!!!!

The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

• Quote

[betzilla 56]

Quote

THESE ARE OUR PROCEDURES:

Exit order is....

Agree on landing direction prior to boarding the plane.

Helmets and cameras must be secured or worn below 1000ft

Please get up for gear checks at 10k

Left turns only in the pattern

No spiraling below 1,000ft

etc.
------------------

John, that is such a good idea. If we give people something in print, they can't claim they didn't know about it, and we don't have to feel like (or be perceived as) jerks for reaming them out.

in any case, people deny fault in all kinds of situations where they screw up. That's a sucky part of human nature. Hopefully that doesn't mean they can't learn from their mistakes.

[mikkey 0]

What I do not understand is that why your DZ is accepting the behaviour? If staff at my DZ had to ask a visiting group more then once to follow DZ policy they would be grounded / shown the door.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Unstable 9]

These occurrences boggle the mind

=========Shaun ==========