lauras 0 #1 July 3, 2003 The various USPA committee agendas for the upcoming BOD meeting have been posted. Go to http://uspa.org/news/notices.htm#uspamtg to see all the gory details. A couple of the proposals caught my eye, including: - A proposed BSR that tandem passengers wear helmets, I suppose to knock their tandem masters' teeth out in a more effective manner. OK, there wasn't a specification as to whether hard or soft helmets would be worn, but I have a feeling it would suck to get a Z1 in the mouth. - Someone with 120 jumps would like to receive her D but is unable to meet the requirements before September due to injuries, so would the USPA please pretty please just give it to her anyway Ad nauseum. I have to hand it to the BOD members... I would SO lose my shit and start smacking people if I had to deal with the bureaucratic part of skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 July 3, 2003 QuoteA proposed BSR that tandem passengers wear helmets What I consider to be a bad idea with good intentions. A frap hat is actually worst for you if you hit your head then having nothing at all. A hard helmet would SUCK for the TM. QuoteSomeone with 120 jumps would like to receive her D but is unable to meet the requirements before September due to injuries, so would the USPA please pretty please just give it to her anyway Tell her to fucking suck it up and earn the damned thing like everyone else! Then go sue McDonalds for hot coffee or something. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #3 July 3, 2003 I know a certain CK TM that probably wouldn't like that helmet idea considering the bloody nose he got just from the passengers bare head smacking him in the face. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #4 July 4, 2003 Quote A frap hat is actually worst for you if you hit your head then having nothing at all. Please explain whyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #5 July 4, 2003 QuoteQuote A frap hat is actually worst for you if you hit your head then having nothing at all. Please explain why Because of the way it is designed. In some situations it can take a spread impact force and concentrate it on a smaller area on the skull due to the ribs on it.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #6 July 4, 2003 Quote Because of the way it is designed. In some situations it can take a spread impact force and concentrate it on a smaller area on the skull due to the ribs on it. Source please...Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 July 4, 2003 From: http://www.skydivingmagazine.com/ques01.htm Quote(Leather "frap hats" -- a descendant of French bicycling hats -- essentially provide no impact protection.) From: http://hem.passagen.se/tkolb/fun/skyd/sdgloss_e.htm From: http://www.parametric.co.nz/skydive/skydivez.htm QuoteFrap-hat Leather helmet worn to keep your ears warm, and cut down the engine noise of ageing DC3s. Not likely to prevent much damage in a "Frap" situation, but may contain some of the mess QuoteFrap hat A soft, leather hat worn by experts for warmth, to hold a dytter in place, or simply to keep one's hair from getting tangled in free fall. Provides marginal protection from knocks. From: http://www.skydivenet.com/fatalities/fatalities_us_97.html QuoteFrap hats can concentrate the force of any impact to a smaller area, quite the opposite of the function of a protective helmet. From: http://www.xlr-8.ch/events/seminars.htm QuoteHelmet (a frap-hat is not ideal, but OK) They are very poor helmets. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #8 July 4, 2003 Frap hats keep you lookin' pretty after you're dead. There's a new version coming out that uses thumb tacks instead of a chin strap..... Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #9 July 4, 2003 QuoteDate Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 3/30/97 Eloy, Arizona LAND 32 700+ ??/?? Description: Current reports indicate she had a rough landing, impacting feet-knees-face under a 1.2 loaded Stilletto. She was airlifted from the scene with with head injuries. She died later at the hospital of these injuries. She was wearing a leather frap hat. This was on a 100-way skydive, so there were many other jumpers in the air. Winds were light with little turbulence. Lessons: Frap hats can concentrate the force of any impact to a smaller area, quite the opposite of the function of a protective helmet. Some rough turbulence, downdrafts or wind shear is thought to have contributed to the rough landing. On every landing, no matter how many jumps you have, you should be prepared to PLF, and stand up only when things have gone right. It takes discipline to do this every time, but it's worth cultivating the habit. This is hardly a reputable source of information. The specific accident sounds like it wouldn't have been helped by anything but a full face helmet, and that might have actually caused a serious neck injury. This accident reporting site on the web sounds official, but it's not, and the reoprting of both accidents and conclusions listed here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. A full face helmet can block vision in some cases. A camera helmet can side load the neck. A standard Protec offers little protection in a face first landing. A chin strap can get caught on a tree branch and break a person's neck. The list goes on and on. No helmet is perfect. I have yet to hear of any reputable testing of any of the standard skydiving helmets. You assertion that frap hats "concentrate" the impact hasn't been tested or proven, and the situations where that may happen have never been compared to situations where the extra padding actually helps. All the "sources" you presented are simply individual skydivers offering their opinions. Frap hats are not great helmets and they will not do much in a full on impact, but they do protect us against simple knocks and abrasions. I was very happy to have mine on when a tandem student slammed my head into the ceiling of an Otter, and I was super glad my student was wearing one on another jump when she shoved her head back into my jaw. Last year I tended to an injured jumper with a frap hat...his head was slammed into the side of an Otter door on a 20 way exit. Under the helmet he had a nasty gash that extended for at least two of the ribs, and he was very loopy. The force was so strong that if it had been his bare head I'm confident he would have been unconscious, at best. A hard helmet would have been better protection, but no helmet would have been far worse. That's my opinion drawn from examining his injury. My experience, based on 4,500 skydives and 1,000 tandems is that frap hats can help in some situations, and I have yet to hear of a confirmed case where they actually caused more harm. I like the idea of requiring tandem instructors and students to wear some kind of head protection. Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) EMT-BTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meadman 0 #10 July 6, 2003 ok, im very much the noob, but I read somewhere the golden rules were. #1 Dont Get hurt #2 Dont Hurt Others #3 Ya might have to break #1 in order to avoid #2 The frap hat doesnt appear to be protection for you as much as it is for others. Take a Hard Hat or a bare skull into the teeth or ribcage and you'll see the beauty of the frap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 July 6, 2003 Ok, but how will that help out a TM? Even with a frap hat on the student could break the TM's nose. If the TM is doing his/her job, then the student's head wouldn't hit the ground on landing and the student's head wouldn't hit the aircraft. When else are they really going to need a helmet? They're not doing big RW, etc. Basically, I basically just can't see any advantages and I can see some BIG disadvantages (like concentrating the force of a blow to the head to a single spot, possibly increasing injury). Although, once again, if the TM is doing his/her job, its not going to happen. How many TMs have yelled something at their student in freefall and had their students respond to the command? i.e. "ARCH" Think that'll work with a helmet on?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #12 July 10, 2003 Tom wrote: >Frap hats are not great helmets and they will not do much in a full on impact, but they do protect us against simple knocks and abrasions. This is the reason I have my Tandem students wear them. >I like the idea of requiring tandem instructors and students to wear some kind of head protection. Tom, I think this thread tells us why we should not be making rules about this. Hell, we can't all agree on whether Frappe Hats are good or bad, so what are we going to make a rule about anyway? At one time I though the same way, then I realized that we seldom hear about injuries associated with Tandem students not wearing head protection. (If you tell me you have, then please indicate where exactly, and I'll ask some questions.) A number of responses to another forum thread indicated that many TI's are using head protection. Let's leave this alone until there is a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #13 July 10, 2003 Tandem Helmets...Not a bad idea if it is just a frap hat, but I don't see the need. For the TM YES! I wear one. The girl that wants her D at 120 jumps... I want a Gold in open 4way...Can the USPA just mail me one? Oh, and I want an AFF rating, but I have not been able to take the time off work...USPA can ya hook a brother up? Its not the USPA's fault (Unles she gets it) She asked her RD and he did what I expect them to do...He took it up. Just like my RD is taking my canopy concerns up. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #14 July 10, 2003 How is a hard helmet any different then the skull of tandem passenger? One will knock you teeth out just the same as the other. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #15 July 10, 2003 a hard helmet puts the surface 3-4 inches (depending on helmet) closer to the TMs teeth..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BETO74 0 #16 July 10, 2003 [- Someone with 120 jumps would like to receive her D but is unable to meet the requirements before September due to injuries, so would the USPA please pretty please just give it to her anyway quote] What the f.... I have over 300 jumps and I just apply for my "A" . I did not care until know, first problem was try to fill the new USPA card, wich the instructor could not figure it out either, am I the only one with this problem? I am the only one thinking that the new forms are garbage? I been getting away without the license cuz I know some people and I know some people that know some person and just because of that they have the "D", that really makes me lose my faith on the USPA. I totally agreed with a number of jumps minimun to get licenses, now enforce it.http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #17 July 10, 2003 Quote I been getting away without the license cuz I know some people and I know some people that know some person and just because of that they have the "D", that really makes me lose my faith on the USPA. I totally agreed with a number of jumps minimun to get licenses, now enforce it. Many people have been "getting away" with it. The problem is not the USPA. It is the Instructor or S&TA who allows this to occur. The USPA can only process what they are sent with your, the I's, or S&TA's signature on it. Quote What the f.... I have over 300 jumps and I just apply for my "A" . I did not care until know, first problem was try to fill the new USPA card, wich the instructor could not figure it out either, am I the only one with this problem? I am the only one thinking that the new forms are garbage? The new cards are one of the better moves the USPA has made in a few years. They provide the Instructor and the student a road map to success. If you, or your Instructor, need some help call Jim Crouch or PM me and I'll give you a hand. With 300 jumps, why are you applying for the "A" unless you have not qualified for a higher license? Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
