People opening above you-a true story

[jerry81 10]

This happened to me on the last jump on sunday;
I was in a load consisting of me and a fun-jump 8-way. I exited first and flew headdown for most of the dive, hummed it a bit (for my standards, anyway) and was in the saddle around 1800. I opened above almost the exact spot where I exited, so to get to the dz I had to fly down the jump run.

So there I was, flying into a slight headwind, heading straight for the landing zone, when at around 1500', the sky about 300' in front and above me literally fills with canopies. The other group apparently took its time on exit, but they probably drifted towards me a bit. More important, they had almost no separation on opening (think Cutaway, the movie) and they all pulled too low for (my) comfort.

The guy leading this group had a couple of 1000 jumps, is an accomplished base jumper and has once killed another skydiver by falling through his canopy. From what I've seen, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near or below him on final approach and now even being in the same load doesn't sound very appealing.

Obviously, I have now a slightly longer list of people around which I should be even more careful than usual, but I'd like to know if there are any general suggestions for making sure someone doesn't fall on you. Pulling lower might have been the thing that saved me this time, but I'll soon be flying a smaller elliptical canopy on which opening that low really doesn't sound like a very good idea.
Perhaps I should start tracking even on solo jumps so that I don't fly directly along the jump run on the way back, but then there's still the matter of groups breaking and people tracking away, which might again put someone above me.

I hope I don't sound too paranoid- I trust most of the people I usually jump with, but when I'm at a larger boogie, I'd just like to know I'm doing everything I can to prevent someone else's mistake from hurting me.

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[nacmacfeegle 0]

Jerry, you need to speak to John Kallend (username Kallend, go figure?) and get his group separation stuff. Its been discussed here heaps of times, so try searching, or PM him for his latest simulations.

Basically, you should have exited after the 8 way. This would probably have given you better horizontal separation, and may have prevented your wee scare.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[jerry81 10]

I don't know if I've seen his latest simulation, but I've seen one version of it.
I agree that exiting after them would have prevented this, but since they obviously did a thing or two wrong, too, I'm still curious if there's anything I can do to feel more safe when I'm flying back to the dz.

Also, in my defense, the plane was a porter and since the exit they practiced on the ground seemed pretty awkward, there's a possibility that they might have accidentally taken me with them if I waited to go last.

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[Shotgun 1]

I don't think it is ever a good idea to fly directly down the jump run, especially when you know there are others exiting (before or after you) in that direction. I think you should wait until you see the canopies from the next group before you start flying in that direction. Generally you should have time to do this unless you had a bad spot or pulled too low, but (unless the dz has no good outs) I think it would be safer to land off than to risk having a collision with another jumper. Now I'm certainly no expert, so maybe someone with more experience could elaborate on this? And it would probably be a good idea to talk to the DZO or a respected experienced jumper at your DZ about the exit order and flight pattern...

As for being on a load with someone who is dangerous, there seems to always be a couple of those people at any dz. I know the feeling - I just make a mental note of who these people are and try to stay as far away from them as possible. Now if they're really doing something BAD you should definitely mention it to the DZO or manager.

[skydivejersey 0]

Do you have a min opening altitude at your DZ? 1,8k seems a little low. Our min is 2.5k and we spread opening hights over 2.5-4k for sports jumping. Helps to avoid issues like this.

[gus 1]

You were flying your canopy directly underneath another group before they had opened, this sounds alot like your error not theirs. If you need to fly your canopy back up the line of flight to make it back to the landing area you need to be flying at 90 degrees to the line of flight until you see the next group open to avoid this kind of thing.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Remster 30]

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Do you have a min opening altitude at your DZ? 1,8k seems a little low. Our min is 2.5k and we spread opening hights over 2.5-4k for sports jumping. Helps to avoid issues like this.

A few things,

Mininal altitude for opening is not the same then "in the saddle by 1800". If you pull at 2500, being in the saddle at 1800 is nothing surprising.

Second, Jerry, its not THEM who did a few things wrong, but from what we know of the incident, its all of you. You are responsable for you own safety, and differing this to the other people in a load is the best way to get killed.

Remster

[grega 0]

Why do you think i always insist on going out last. luckily we always fly freefly so we're out last or before tandems anyway. and you can open few feets higher if needed to get back to the airport, since noone is above us.
And you can watch those that are dangerous, don't track and have no landing pattern (probably haven't heard of such thing yet ), from high above and after they are all on the ground (one way or another) you land with all the air you need. and you can learn swooping without worrying about other traffic too much.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

[Deniro voice]
You talking to me Alun?
[/Deniro voice]

I don't generally put freefly solos out before belly flier groups.....
And all the jumps at my local DZs comply with BPA regs, so we never, ever, ever, open low.......ever.
But there was this one time, at band camp.....

Your sig line comes from Jingo, by Terry Pratchett.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[jerry81 10]

First of all, safety-wise, the States and here is just two different worlds. I'm constantly seeing people do things that would (from what I read here) get them grounded or banned in America.

Second, getting under the group apparently was my mistake, caused by thinking I was out of harms' way at my altitude. I realize now that someone with a mal can easily hit you even if you think you're low enough.
But regardless of that, the facts remain that this formation did not break high enough to insure everyone had their own airspace (a bit irrelevant, but it was still scary to hang there waiting for an entanglement to drop down by you) and they pulled low, even though they had students among them and they knew there was likely to be an open canopy somewhere below. I've no problem admitting that I screwed up, but I'd still be mad if a person who just decided to hum it fell through my canopy at 1500'.

Anyway, live and learn...

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[grega 0]

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I've no problem admitting that I screwed up

you screwed up? again? Oh, what will we do with you jerry...

Oh i just remebered when you said they weren't tracking well. hmm if you're honest, when you look at our loads from the ground, you can see that few at solt track as they should and most of them are tracking like sh#@! or don't at all.
So even if you find yourself under solts big way you'll probably experience the same (waiting for entanglement of those in big way, going by you at 1800 feets,...). well at least it wouldn't surprise me if i saw this.
So best way is to stay at FF and jump last (after those who don't know how to behave in the air) and try not to screw up anything. even if you are above them you can still fall on them and srew up big time!

Just my thoughts.

p.s. If anyone at all at solt shows some interest of how to track properly, i'd love to give them some pointers that spec gave me. Or they can ask any at andromeda how to do it. But noone asks... it seems like everybody already knows everything...

"George just lucky i guess!"

[councilman24 37]

I often, even on solo jumps, track 90 degrees to the jump run. Especially in two ways with multiple groups I'll tell my partner to track one direction while I track the other, both 90 degrees to the wind line.

It makes a difference on free flyers out first or last on the skill of the freeflyer. If they are immediately head down into the relative wind they'll get thrown forward more and should go out last. If they are newbies they may catch air, slow down their ground speed quickly and dift back. In jumping at the WFFC I've seen all sorts of variations on these scenarios. I don't believe there is one answer. It depends on the skill and exit of the freeflyers.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Tonto 1]

So have you figured out why "Fast is Last" and you should never track or fly your canopy up or down the line of flight?

I think so.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I realize now that someone with a mal can easily hit you even if you think you're low enough.
But regardless of that, the facts remain that this formation did not break high enough to insure everyone had their own airspace (a bit irrelevant, but it was still scary to hang there waiting for an entanglement to drop down by you) and they pulled low, even though they had students among them and they knew there was likely to be an open canopy somewhere below.

This is exactly the reason why vertical seperation means nothing!!!!!!!!!

It is all about horizontal seperation. If you would have gone out after the big belly formation, none of this would have been an issue, because there would have been sufficient horizontal seperation.

Yeah, they may have hummed it low. But what if they had a malfunction? IMHO you should not have been there in the first place.

I think it makes sense to track at 90 degrees of jumprun, even on solo jumps. That could help avoid situations like this as well.

[skydivejersey 0]

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This is exactly the reason why vertical seperation means nothing!!!!!!!!!

I totally disagree with this statement. Ok it is less relavent when someone has a mal (whats that statisically once every 500 jumps?) but on the 499 it does have value and safety benefits.

[skydivejersey 0]

plus not to mention it can help avoid everyone arriving at the landing area at the same time....

[nightjumps 1]

You should have gone out after the 8 way. Larger formations drift more in freefall (I'm assuming it was RW, not vRW).

Go here to see Kallend's diagram of exit order.

http://lensmoor.org/cgi-bin/chute.cgi?vplane=100&vhwind=0&vlwind=15&sheer=3000&delay=5&faller=1&run=Submit+Query&loaded=1

[PhillyKev 0]

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I totally disagree with this statement. Ok it is less relavent when someone has a mal (whats that statisically once every 500 jumps?) but on the 499 it does have value and safety benefits.

Vertical separation is useful under canopy to set up landing order. At opening time, it's shite. With many canopies taking up to 800' to open, and the majority of people pulling between 2500-3500' it should never be used as a method to ensure safety. Horizontal separation is the only safe way.

[Remster 30]

Agreed Kev.

Never relly on vertical seperation to have clear airspace on opening, wether your opening or anyone else's.

Remster

[skydivejersey 0]

Of course horizontal separation is the most important, however vertical seperation is an important and usefull backup IMO. I dont imply or advocate it as a replacement for H sep but it can and does help maintain distance, and does mean more than the nothing implied in the post above.

[LouDiamond 1]

There is no back up and there is only one way to ensure both. You MUST have horizontal seperation and you must have low(er) pullers out before the higher pullers, dive type and # of people permitting. Other wise there has to be a compromise on who pulls where. Relying on vertical seperation can only be acheived once under canopy. If you think you can tell me that you can space people out safely by their deployment altitude with no horizontal seperation your smoking BIG crack rocks. Most loads are organized while waiting for the A/C to arrive by somone in the know or by basic jumper awareness and asking others in front and back what their plans are and pull altitudes.

Threads like this disturb me since it is obvious that many seasoned skydivers still don't grasp this concept. What is even more disturbing is that I have witnessed visiting skydivers from your country and others actually do most of the things that you mentioned in the states and they find thermselves either grounded or sometimes hurt. There is no reason for this other than sheer negligence and lack of being responsible for yourself and other skydivers. You let the larger group influence your decision to get out first because of fear of being in the way or getting knocked out of the A/C on exit. If thats the case than you should of moved yourself to a better position in the A/C once on jump run or waited where you were. If you sit there and know something isn't right or have the feeling something isn't right and you allow it to happen then you are just as guility. All the people in the group who let you exit FF first in front of them are guilty as well since there had to been one person that knew better and they didn't say anything. This type of skydiving has to be stopped and eduction has to be emphasized at your DZ if people are unaware of it. If no one there is competent enough to explain it to others than you should take it on yourself to try and educate them. It could be your life you are saving. hopefully your experience was an eye opener to you and the others in the group behind you.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Remster 30]

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important and usefull backup IMO

Its not a backup at all. If you dont have hor. separation, relying an V seperation is not safe.

Remster

[jerry81 10]

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I have witnessed visiting skydivers from your country and others actually do most of the things that you mentioned in the states and they find thermselves either grounded or sometimes hurt. There is no reason for this other than sheer negligence and lack of being responsible for yourself and other skydivers.

Agreed- this is one of the reasons I said it was two different worlds.

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You let the larger group influence your decision to get out first because of fear of being in the way or getting knocked out of the A/C on exit.

That, and I intended to pull a bit low and I like knowing that the air below me is 100% clear.

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If thats the case than you should of moved yourself to a better position in the A/C once on jump run or waited where you were.

It was a Porter. From where I was sitting, I could have moved only to the wingstrut.

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there had to been one person that knew better and they didn't say anything.

Somehow, I doubt that. The person organizing this 8-way was the most experienced of the group and he was also probably the most dangerous person I had seen that weekend.

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education has to be emphasized at your DZ if people are unaware of it. If no one there is competent enough to explain it to others than you should take it on yourself to try and educate them.

Agreed. However, I still think you Americans usually don't completely understand just how different an approach to this sport people have here. For one thing, there aren't any commercial dropzones and the necessary banning or grounding of certain people would cause some big personal grudges- something few, if any, organizers wish to risk. It sucks.
Second; I've been jumping for a year. The best I can do right now is to educate myself as best as I can (hence this thread) and possibly pass this knowledge on to jumpers with lower numbers who are willing to listen. In another year, I'll probably be able to start influencing others too, but right now, I'm quite certain noone would pay any attention to me.
And btw, I saw one person who claims to be competent enough to hold canopy seminars crash his pocket rocket most of the landings and then take it out on people who "blocked" him on final approach with their big canopies. Go figure.

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hopefully your experience was an eye opener to you and the others in the group behind you.

Me, I learned a lot, mostly from the replies here. Others- who knows if they were even aware of me...

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[Shotgun 1]

Yikes! Jumping in Slovenia sounds scary.
You should definitely try to educate yourself as much as possible... There are a couple of websites (I'm sure there are more if you look around) that have some good information - they may not be relevant to this incident, but you might find some useful info:

PD's educational articles at: http://www.performancedesigns.com/education.asp and Skydive AZ at: http://skydiveaz.com/resource.htm

Also, maybe if you could get everyone who jumps at your DZ to chip in you could afford to hire someone (like John LeBlanc from PD) to come over for a "safety seminar" weekend or something like that. I have no idea how much that would cost, and it may not work if there are too many big egos at your DZ, but it's a thought...

Good luck and stay safe!

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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I totally disagree with this statement. Ok it is less relavent when someone has a mal (whats that statisically once every 500 jumps?) but on the 499 it does have value and safety benefits.

I probably said it too harshly as usual. I was trying to convey that the first priority in this situation should be horizontal seperation.

Vertical seperation can go to shit with mals or early deployments. With proper horizontal seperation, I don't think there are any situations where it can go wrong. (refering to mid air collisions during or before deployment).

Hence, I think we should focus and rely on horizontal seperation mostly. Naturally it would make sense ot focus on vertical seperation after that. Like high pullers etc last.