billvon 3,090 #26 August 6, 2003 >Flaw in that logic: Drugs are illegal. BASE gear is not. Bolt cutters are not illegal. However, they WILL be confiscated if the police catch you using them to break into a truckyard. Similarly, cops will confiscate BASE gear if they think you are using it to trespass on private property. Whether you were already trespassing by being on the property to begin with, and therefore the rig was not the tool that you used to trespass, is a different story. Unfortunately most cops are not equipped to make that determination in the field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SickMonkey 0 #27 August 6, 2003 You know Quade, I have a friend who tried the "These aren't the 'droids you're looking for" when the car he was riding was pulled over by the the man. The officer thought he said "These aren't the DRUGS you're looking for" and proceeded to tear the car apart. Needless to say, it's funny stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #28 August 6, 2003 THAT'S funny as hell. Obviously his powers are . . . weak.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phonics1981 0 #29 August 6, 2003 Quote Sounds like a group of skydivers.................. Fact is, you break the law you pay the price. If you don't like it, don't do it. Either quit complaining, get elected to the city council and change the law, or pay up. Blues, J.E. Its not the law thats the problem. Its a bit of a grey area as to whether it is in the power of the law to confiscate a BASE rig or if its not. Thats what we're discussing. ------------------------------------------------------ "Ive given up on sigs cos I make a mess of them!" ------------------------------------------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #30 August 6, 2003 I would say yes. It goes towards showing intent. If you are caught trespassing and have a BASE rig, that can be used to show that were up there deliberately, and didn't just "lose" your way. You could draw an analogy with the bolt cutters here. You're on a property that has had it's front gate padlock chopped open by a bolt cutter. The cops pick you up inside with a pair of bolt cutters. You could argue that the gate was open, and you just 'wandered in', but you have bolt cutters. That shows that you may have had something to do with the gate opening.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tictoc 0 #31 August 6, 2003 Quote I would say yes. It goes towards showing intent. If you are caught trespassing and have a BASE rig, that can be used to show that were up there deliberately, and didn't just "lose" your way. You could draw an analogy with the bolt cutters here. You're on a property that has had it's front gate padlock chopped open by a bolt cutter. The cops pick you up inside with a pair of bolt cutters. You could argue that the gate was open, and you just 'wandered in', but you have bolt cutters. That shows that you may have had something to do with the gate opening. Stuff like this is what I was trying to say. The cops have to prove "beond a dought" what the chrimanal was doing. They cant say " I saw you do it" as they have no idea who they saw and more than likely you are no longer comitting the crime. So they use the fact that you have the gear to do such a thing to remove dought. Thus take the gear into evidence as proof. I would still like to know for a fact why no one gets their gear back. I think only a peson who has tried and was not able to get it would be able to ansure this. That is if ANYONE has tried.-------------------------------------------------------- Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #32 August 6, 2003 Quote You know Quade, I have a friend who tried the "These aren't the 'droids you're looking for" when the car he was riding was pulled over by the the man. The officer thought he said "These aren't the DRUGS you're looking for" and proceeded to tear the car apart. Needless to say, it's funny stuff. i bet he forgot the hand motion..its essential to use proper technique ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #33 August 7, 2003 Your logic does not compute................. The bolt cutters are/were a tool used in a criminal action and therefore are evidence. Your base gear are/were used in the criminal action of trespass and therefore are evidence. If you want to do base, do legal base. Or quit blaming the cops.Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #34 August 7, 2003 Quote Your logic does not compute................. The bolt cutters are/were a tool used in a criminal action and therefore are evidence. Your base gear are/were used in the criminal action of trespass and therefore are evidence. If you want to do base, do legal base. Or quit blaming the cops.Blues, J.E. Stop man! These people are clearly not blaming, flaming or bad-mouthing cops in any way! Just tryin to figure out if they can keep their sh*t or not! SO bolt cutters were used in the criminal action of a tresspass as they were the item used to cut the bolt (break n' enter/tresspass) The base rig was used in what criminal action?... it was not used to help you get into the private property, it was not used to do anything illigal (because the jump itself is not illegal, most times, all they get charged with is the tresspass) Now I can see the cops taking it away from you when they arrest you 1) because they are arresting you thusly, they take all your sh*t... yes, they would take a knapsac full of picnic too if you were arrested for tresspassing and 2) to prove that you indeed were there "May I present to the court, item A, one base rig, which we beleive the defendant was going to use to make a BASE jump on said private property." Makes sense to me. BUT! When it's all said and done, that's YOUR rig man! It's not illegal to own, it's not illegal to use. It was just taken away from you when you went into custody, it should be returned with your watch, wallet and shoestrings! End of story IMHO I'm not a BASE jumper but I can feel the agravation of those who have lost gear like this. Get up, Stand up.... Stand up fo ya rights! Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #35 August 7, 2003 humm the few people I know who have jumped NPS sites and got caught, and had their gear confiscated, all got their gear back after court. Have people had different situations where their gear was never returned? There had to be some reason given as to why they didn't get it back.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #36 August 7, 2003 Way off base dood - way off base. Not even a nice try - perhaps you just don't know any real cops. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcrocker 0 #37 August 7, 2003 What about climbers that climb el Capitan then BASE off of it. It isn't trespassing to climb the mountain but jumping in the air surrounding the mountain is trespassing? Why is one sport legal and the other illegal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #38 August 7, 2003 Quote Way off base dood - way off base. Shouldn't that read "Way off B.A.S.E dood - way off B.A.S.E." ? Oh wait, I get it. lol My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #39 August 7, 2003 >The bolt cutters are/were a tool used in a criminal action and therefore >are evidence. Your base gear are/were used in the criminal action of >trespass and therefore are evidence. Uh, that's what I said . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #40 August 7, 2003 >The base rig was used in what criminal action?... Trespass. > it was not used to help you get into the private property . . . It was not used to deliver the jumper to the ground? There's a reason there's a legal term called "aerial delivery." I suppose technically you could claim that it simply helped you move from one part of the illegally-entered property to another, but that's a distinction most police are not equipped to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #41 August 7, 2003 > It isn't trespassing to climb the mountain but jumping in the air > surrounding the mountain is trespassing? No, the term is illegal aerial delivery. It's illegal to BASE jump in Yosemite, not to be on the rock. > Why is one sport legal and the other illegal? Because ten BASE jumpers trashed the place for the short time BASE was legal off El Cap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 August 7, 2003 Quote humm the few people I know who have jumped NPS sites and got caught, and had their gear confiscated, all got their gear back after court. That's it in a nutshell. The fuzz protects the evidence from spoliation. Once it's evidentiary value is no longer needed, it gets returned. Thanks, kevin, for providing more evidence to prove a point. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #43 August 7, 2003 [ Quote Its not the law thats the problem. Its a bit of a grey area as to whether it is in the power of the law to confiscate a BASE rig or if its not. Thats what we're discussing. One in the same? Law, power of the law? Any municipality may/can pass a law authorizing any law enforcement official to confiscate property used in the commitment of a crime. I say again. If you don't want to pay, don't play. How much gray area is there when they take you away in cuffs? You can always have evidence or property returned to you after a period of time unless, the local authority has been given the authority to confiscate the equipment to help compensate for the costs of responding to stupid tricks. Kind of like the guy from Minn. that just found himself stuck on the guy wire don't you think? What did it cost to get him down? Check with your local law enforcement. Then go do legal base.Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #44 August 7, 2003 I did think of it in that terms too lol Or maybe those other terms... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #45 August 7, 2003 Law and power of the law are two totally completely different beasts IMHO - a good lawyer can beat a bad lawyer in just about any case. As for only jumping legally, that would seriously cut into my desired jump list. Drugs and DUIs are one thing, but I'd have no problems getting arrested for doing some of my desired jumps in illegal places. Blue ones... -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #46 August 7, 2003 Goose, eject eject, eject, whatch out for the canopy................. must have hit your head!!! Quote The base rig was used in what criminal action?... it was not used to help you get into the private property, it was not used to do anything illigal (because the jump itself is not illegal, most times, all they get charged with is the tresspass) What criminal action? Trespass, oh I guess you said that. Are you telling me that if you break the law to commit an action, like a base jump, that the action itself is not illegal???? You've got to be kidding me??? Stop Man! How many ways can you justify breaking the law? But I wanted to do a "legal" base jump officer. The fact that the gate was locked has nothing to do with it???? Do you want to keep your sh*t as you put it? Do legal base.................... Blues, J.E.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #47 August 7, 2003 Quote Kind of like the guy from Minn. that just found himself stuck on the guy wire don't you think? What did it cost to get him down? What about the cat they retrieve from a tree? Do they keep the cat as compensation for their time? What about when they put out a housefire because some dumbass passed out in bed with a cigarette? Do they keep the contents of the house? How about when they have to helo out an injured climber on the side of a cliff? Do they keep his gear? It's all irrelevant. They are paid with taxpayer money to respond to situations. That's why they have the gear they have and that's why they are employed. Shit happens. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #48 August 7, 2003 Quote It was not used to deliver the jumper to the ground? There's a reason there's a legal term called "aerial delivery." I suppose technically you could claim that it simply helped you move from one part of the illegally-entered property to another, but that's a distinction most police are not equipped to make. Aerial delivery is only applicable to National Parks to the best of my knowledge. I don't buy that idea that the rig was used for any purpose during commission of the "crime." It was not instrumental in the act of trespassing. Besides which, if they did not see you actually trespass, but you are on the ground with an open container and canopy in front of you, how can they actually prove you were ever on the object? I want to post this again: Quote This has also given me a whole other thot about fliking private property. Lets say you are caught landing off the property or on public property near the object. Lets say nobody ever saw you exit said object. Seems to me you are just flying around under a canopy. How you got there may be somewhat obvious, but if they have no real proof you were on the property, how can they get you for trespass? Maybe you were doing an illegal skydive from an ultralight at 5k at night on a single-container system. Who's to say, really? I guess my thot is, if you've left the property without any sign of being there, how can they prove you were actually there? Further, if there is an object on one property and one right next to it on another property, how can they charge you with trespass if they don't have a definitive trespass address or location? Does this make sense? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #49 August 7, 2003 First, there are a couple of things you are mixing up. You trespass on property. You do "unauthorized aerial delivery" in the NPS. One thing that you may not undertsand. Park rangers shouldn't confiscate your rigs unless you jump (I could go on to the nuances of "attempt" but it's a pain in the ass). You hike around Yosemite with a rig, you technically haven't done anything wrong. You aren't trespassing unless you are going places you shouldn't be. Once you jump, you have committed a crime of "unauthorized aerial delivery." Now your rig is evidence. It was actually used to deliver you. It was an "instrumentality." Next, let's try trespass. You go to the roof of a fancy Las Vegas hotel wihtout authorization. You just trespassed. Then you jumped. You get caught. Rig confiscated. Now, you didn't do an "unauthorized aerial delivery." You did a trespass. Your rig evidences your intent to trespass. Why were you on the roof? Well, you didn't accidentally fall off of it. The parachute wasn't a mistake either. Rig confiscated because it shows EXACTLY why you were there. for the NPS the rig was an instrumentality. For the trespass, it evidenced your intent. Either way, say goodbye to it! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #50 August 7, 2003 Actually, I was attempting to clarify the fact that aerial delivery only applies to NPS and the crime in private property is trespassing. Aerial delivery is a crime in and of itself, hence the rig would be evidence. In trespassing, the rig has nothing to do with the trespass other than the means to leave the property, such as a pair of shoes would be in any other case of trespass. You made an example I won't follow up too much on other than to ask: What if you were lawfully on a balcony of some B and hopped off? By having a balcony with unfettered access, the owner gave you permission to be there. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
