Freeflying. Is it "the death of skydiving"?

[psychoswooper 2]

Yeah, wow I know, pretty wild title But that is exactly what was relayed to me as a direct quote of a TX DZ operator.
So giving this some thought. On the one hand, freeflying has probably provided a nice boost at least to rig manufacturers, as jumpers get rid of their old flat flying rigs & purchase new freefly friendly gear. Also the visual appeal of free-flying seems to attract and yes, maybe even help keep some new "youngblood" in the sport.
At my DZ, almost all new jumpers are turning to freeflying around 50-75 jumps or so. The problem is that they have developed only very basic flat-flying skills, and once they switch, never seem to come back to flat-flying. They all talk of being Freefly coaches at some point in the future. And therein lies the dilema.....If everybody becomes a great freeflyer & nobody wants to become good enough at flat flying to do AFF, Who will teach the next generation of students the basics??
I know some will argue that really good free flyers can do AFF in sit or head down, but realistically, because of the fall rates involved, while possible, I believe that jumpers with that skill would be few & far in between. So I pose the question...Who will teach the next generations of beginners?

[dzjmg 0]

freeflying is still diving in the sky, so I wouldn't go as far as saying "death."

it has occurred to me (and I could be wrong) that most TRULY competitive 4-ways teams are age 35+ and most competitive freefliers are in their 20's.

personally, I have tried to learn both flat and freefly at the same time. I really don't understand why it has to be one or the other.

Jay

[Blahr 0]

I'll probably get a lot of grief for this but I just dont get all the hype about freeflying

I'm returning after an 8 year layoff and I want to do some RW!!!

I was never able to jump a lot before so my skills were slow to grow. Then 8 years off and what little RW skill I had begun to develop has gotten all rusty.

I wanna get my belly flying wired. I can see trying something different down the road just for the heck of it but frankly, the idea of flying on my head just doesnt
interest me unless I'm trying to see what my top speed is. Sit? What for? I sit all day long!

Its very cool to have different diciplines. If you like freeflying, way cool dude

The more things there are to do the more folks will be interested. I think its good for the sport.
Hybrid jumps look interesting.

I dont wanna do it though, I want to do kick ass RW
and I'm told that my old DZ still has plenty of belly fliers

[Unstable 9]

I don't believe that it is the Death of Skydiving. However, i do believe that many skydivers are burning themselves and trying to freefly long long before they have developed adequate relative skills. It's a shame, but i have met many people who can do different manuevers in a head-down, but can bearly stay relative in a group. this may be me preaching, but i think that a jumper needs to have develped belly skills before they should concern themselves with learning freeflying. They are losing important principles of body flight and in my opinion, pose a safety concern to themselves and others.
my .02.
Blue Skies,

=========Shaun ==========

[nitecap 0]

Thirty years ago it was those damn style jumpers that were going to kill it.

[AggieDave 6]

Well, I know that it wasn't MY DZO, since he's picked up FF after 2500 jumps that revolved around RW and students. Although he still gets out there and cranks through RW and obviously still does instructing...


Anyways, you'll end up with guys like me.

I'm 23, at jump 36 I started FFing and never looked back. Not until I knew that I really wanted to work with students but my belly skills were no where near where they needed to be for me to get any ratings. So I started getting RW coaching, it helped a lot, I started learning things that I should have learned a long time ago. Now I'm an USPA Coach and a Tandem Master, soon to go through the Skydive U. progression fully with one of my local SD U coaches so I can start fully prepairing for getting an AFF rating sometime next season.


So the moral of the story is, never stereotype a group, you'll always find an exception (especially with FFers ).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Unstable 9]

[whine] ohhhh, but i like to stereotype people [whine/]

=========Shaun ==========

[billvon 3,085]

>Yeah, wow I know, pretty wild title But that is exactly what was relayed
>to me as a direct quote of a TX DZ operator.

They were saying the same thing about freak flying 20 years ago.

>If everybody becomes a great freeflyer & nobody wants to become good
> enough at flat flying to do AFF, Who will teach the next generation of
>students the basics??

There will always be enough AFF-JM's to teach AFF. Supply and demand; if DZO's can't hire good AFF-JM's for $25 a jump, they'll up the pay until they can get enough JM's. Even a hard core freeflyer would spend a few hundred jumps getting good at bellyflying if he could make $1000 a weekend doing AFF.

And if there's a transition period where there are fewer AFF-JM's? There's always static line.

[mr2mk1g 10]

but then AFF prices go up through the roof - they are already so high that most people dont even contemplate the sport

[Tonto 1]

Freeflyers are learning to fly their entire bodies on all control surfaces relative to each other. They'll have the skills to do AFF.

It also doesn't have to be one or the other. We don't have to stay on our bellies. Pat Works is proof of that.

Change is good. Besides - my AFF students just LOVE to see me learning to freefly!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[TrickyDicky 0]

HYBRED.

I only do RW because I dont have FF friendly kit (being a uni student made sure of that) but to be honest I actually love the look of formations. Im really interested in doing RW over freeflying (I havent actually tried any yet. Will have to borrow a friend's rig).

In this country, to get your FF1 (free-fly) you need to show almost all of the qualifications for FS1 (formation skydiving). But this allows you to do FF jumps with others. You can do as much solo freeflying as you want.

There are plenty of FF's at my dz and plenty of people that do RW, and some that do both.

I dont think FF is the death of skydiving at all, just a new discipline. RW is still the biggest competitive part of skydiving. But I dont see it dying off. At least, I will try and not let it.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[StevePhelps 0]

I made a similar statement to my DZO a few weeks back and boy did it get his goat! Actually, I was simply trying to start a conversation. Boy did I! I told him the younger generation is a ll about extreme. I pointed him to the primary audience of the X games (Average age 20-25)

"You gotta learn RW to fly camera, coach and be a AFF JM!" HE screamed. Well, maybe, maybe not. It may take a while, but my bet is skydiving will be as different in 5 years as today is different than 40 years ago. We'll see!

[diverdriver 6]

Quote

I made a similar statement to my DZO a few weeks back and boy did it get his goat! Actually, I was simply trying to start a conversation. Boy did I! I told him the younger generation is a ll about extreme. I pointed him to the primary audience of the X games (Average age 20-25)

"You gotta learn RW to fly camera, coach and be a AFF JM!" HE screamed. Well, maybe, maybe not. It may take a while, but my bet is skydiving will be as different in 5 years as today is different than 40 years ago. We'll see!

It's the death of skydiving as we know it now. But then, it's always been that way. Skydiving has developed and changed over the years. You just have to look back and see it. Now, I will have to say that the sport is evolving more rapidly now than it has in the past. More people, more ideas, better technology, lighter/smaller video cameras have all played into the change.

But I have to agree, freefly skills DO NOT automaticly translate into coaching/AFF ability. My first 200 jumps or more were Freefly and CRW. I don't believe I could have made my freefly skills work for me as an AFF JM. Why? Because as an IAD JM I had to follow people out to observe their long delay jumps. I've seen it and know that it does not translate over. Belly flying (especially student training and coaching) must be learned and practiced just like any other discipline. I agree that people should not have to choose one discipline over the other. But I do believe that when it comes to coaching you do have to have a background of belly jumps. How are you going to coach 4 way launches in a flat fly if you have never done it?

Right now there is a group of freeflyers at SDC that toy with the flat flying stuff now and again. They have asked me and others for coaching on launching and flying in their dirt dives. I would say that most of them are fairly good at freeflying but watching their videos of belly flying they have a lot to learn. I certainly wouldn't want them to have a coach rating right now. But it is good to see them working on their skills. They will be well rounded jumpers if they keep it up. Keep learning.

Their is a difference.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[CDRINF 1]

Well, back in my day they just called it being unstable! I had one DZO tell me that the problem with freeflyers from a business standpoint is that they stay up all night at rave parties, don't show up at the DZ until 3:00 PM and only make one jump. He makes no money off of them.

All joking aside, I think the true measure of a skydiver in the future will be someone who can control his or her body in all modes of flight. It's all about body control and the ability to transition. If you can only fly in one mode, you will be a very limited, one dimensional skydiver.

What bothers me is the increasing hostility I see between advocates of the various disciplines. I was at a small boogie one time that had a number of CRW jumpers present. At one point, while the RW folks were dirt diving, the CRW organizer yelled "You damn freefallers hurry up and get on the plane." Funny, I thought we all engaged in freefall as part of the skydive.

A lot of us like to feel superior to others, and as skydivers, most of us probably feel a little special compared to those who have never jumped. When that feeling begins to divide skydivers, however, that's bad. USPA has only around 33,000 members, and I figure maybe only one half to two thirds are truly active jumpers. When some DZs become Freefly DZs and others become RW DZs, the population of jumpers gets segmented to a degree that will be impossible to sustain over time. That is what will cause problems for skydiving in the long run.

CDR

[diverdriver 6]

Just wait until we have "swooper only" DZs. Or "Birdman only" DZs. It's the same as what gear people pick. One DZ will love Javelins while other love Vector and still others swear by Racer. It's all the same. Birds of a feather flock together. (that was not a plug for birdman. had that been an actual plug for birdman I would have included the whisper "hey, first hits free")

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[kallend 2,114]

Quote

Well, back in my day they just called it being unstable! I had one DZO tell me that the problem with freeflyers from a business standpoint is that they stay up all night at rave parties, don't show up at the DZ until 3:00 PM and only make one jump. He makes no money off of them.

All joking aside, I think the true measure of a skydiver in the future will be someone who can control his or her body in all modes of flight. It's all about body control and the ability to transition. If you can only fly in one mode, you will be a very limited, one dimensional skydiver.

What bothers me is the increasing hostility I see between advocates of the various disciplines. I was at a small boogie one time that had a number of CRW jumpers present. At one point, while the RW folks were dirt diving, the CRW organizer yelled "You damn freefallers hurry up and get on the plane." Funny, I thought we all engaged in freefall as part of the skydive.

A lot of us like to feel superior to others, and as skydivers, most of us probably feel a little special compared to those who have never jumped. When that feeling begins to divide skydivers, however, that's bad. USPA has only around 33,000 members, and I figure maybe only one half to two thirds are truly active jumpers. When some DZs become Freefly DZs and others become RW DZs, the population of jumpers gets segmented to a degree that will be impossible to sustain over time. That is what will cause problems for skydiving in the long run.

CDR

Surely it depends on the culture of the DZ and the example set by the staff. At SkydiveChicago last month we saw several of the world's best freefliers (Rook and Mike Swanson of Alchemy, Missy and Jen of the Sugar Gliderz) taking part in a 10-way RW competition. The next week the belly and freefliers got together in a 22 way hybrid jump. And the flock (tracking) dives always have a mix of disciplines. At the same time, the major RW LOs have been up there sit flying when not organizing. This kind of example leads to a lot of crossover.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Doesn't Olaf say that Free Flying is about total body control and being able to do anything in any position in the air? That means on your head, on your arse, on your belly - whatever.

The true definition of FF should therefore be the ability to control yourself in ANY position. Many FFers neglect their belly skills.

Perhaps there should be a new name for being able to fly in sit/stand/head-down but being a turky on your belly.

[stuartjl 0]

I have around 150 jumps and I was aspiring to being a good FFlyer but i found that RW was much more satisfying and equiped me with lots of very useful skills that are generic to freefall. The reason that I was leaning towards FFlying was that it was so difficult to organise other jumpers at my local DZ. I think that this is a common problem and leads to people getting into FFlying just to get in the air.

I did hear of a system in Lake Wales where any solo jumpers can stand in a designated area to advertise that they were on their own and wanted to get together with other jumpers. I think that this is a great idea and could be used elsewhere.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Why is it, that with the exception of AggieDave (and now myself) only belly fliers have responded to this thread?

I agree with a previous poster that freeflying is flying your body in any position and yes we freefliers don't spend very much time on our bellies (heck it's time to think about pitching when I find myself on my belly). But to insinuate that freeflying will be the death of skydiving is naive. Haven't you ever heard of evolution? Freeflying is just taking skydiving to new levels and any competent skydiver should be able to fly their bodies in any position. Now I'll likely never be a world class belly flier because the discipline just doesn't interest me (and I'd also like to say that I have no interest in sharing my immediate skies with many many many other skydivers the way many big-way belly fliers like to). But who says that a good freeflier can't be a good AFF instructor? Good freefliers are able to position themselves in the face of another skydiver and they'll use whatever skills they know how to use to do so. So even though I don't think it's necessary, what's the problem if someone uses their freeflying skills to get relative to another skydiver before using whatever skills (ie: belly) to match the other skydiver's fall rate.

Come on people, wake up and smell the java. Do you want to see skydiving evolve as a sport or do you want it to become stagnant? Maybe we should go back to using round parachutes because too many people are hurting themselves with modern sport parachutes? LOL ... NOT ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Jayruss 0]

maybe that TX DZO doesn't realize that freeflyers still buy jump tickets . . .

__________________________________________________
"Beware how you take away hope from another human being."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes

[stuartjl 0]

agreed..

[skybytch 273]

Quote

Freeflying is just taking skydiving to new levels and any competent skydiver should be able to fly their bodies in any position.

My thoughts exactly.

I can't understand those who will only explore one discipline. In a sport with few limits, why limit yourself to one way of having fun in the sky?

The last 10 years or so have seen a lot of innovation in skydiving disciplines and equipment. It's an exciting time to be a skydiver. I don't see freeflying (and canopy swooping and wingsuits) as the death of the sport, I see them as yet another rebirth.

Those who want to teach will do what it takes to get the ratings, and there will always be those who want to teach. If it means getting "remedial" belly flying coaching at 400 jumps because they've spent most of those jumps on their heads, that's what they'll do.

[billvon 3,085]

>but then AFF prices go up through the roof . . . .

Exactly. Fewer people want to jump because prices are up, so you need fewer instructors. Since you need fewer instructors, you can pay the ones you have less - and JM's pay drops again. It regulates itself.

[rehmwa 2]

Freeflying = evolving?

I don't think so, it's more like expanding. I don't think of freeflying as something 'more evolved' or 'better', just another facet of jumping. I won't respond to any semantics arguments (even though this is one).

Again, all the disciplines are fun and restricting your experience from any aspect is just taking away your abilities. Congrats to the olav types and SDC for recognizing it.

Funny picture in Parachutist a couple years ago - Pip R was in a headdown doing AFF with a student (apparently, the student fell pretty fast?). A lot of people wrote in AGHAST at the sight, and "How can someone be so irresponsible" and so on. Pip is better in just about any body position than most are in their chosen field and these guys just didn't get it. he could have caught that student any time from any position.

Short is, my RW is better for my freeflying and my freeflying is better for my RW (also, my Crw and swooping help each other out also).

FF won't be the death, unless people keep abandoning the other disciplines for it

that won't happen, we just need to make sure people are cross trained and not turned off from RW due to too expectations too soon.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[happythoughts 0]

I am seeing freefliers do headdown RW.

In the mid 90's, I was meeting jumpers from England who said "try this new thing... headdown". Only knew 5 of 6. Then it caught on.

I asked the headdown people how they did their dirt dive or turned points. Response? "Oh, we don't do dirt dives, we just fly. We don't turn points." Now there are people doing headdown bigways.

People need to realize that headdown is evolving too. Now people want to do headdown RW records.