Looking BEFORE you pull!!!

[hottamaly 1]

I was load organizing at Perris last week and had an incident happen that shook up the whole group I was with. We had a person whom had 100 jumps and the dive started off good. As time went on it got a little goosey and at one point I ended up on the 100 jump person's back. No problem, I just pushed off and looked up to see where the rest of the group was. I then looked down to see the low person and to my surprise, they were waving off and pulling right under me! I was able to track out of the way in time but the rest of the group went right past the opening canopy. I went to talk with the individual and ask what they remembered and apparantly he had gotten panicky when backpacked and panicked some more thinking he was too low and just dumped. Reflecting on it now, he knew it was the wrong thing to do. I however was not satisfied with this and explained that if he panics on something like this, which could have killed some of us, but how is he going to react to a REAL problem i.e. high speed mal, lines broken, etc.? He was open by 2500'.
I can't express enough that we all need to KEEP OUR HEADS when things happen so we can deal with them appropriately and in a timely fashion.
Let's all pay attention out there!

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[andy2 0]

i have little experience, but in my opinion the most dangerous times in a skydive are deployment and landing. Its not a coincidence that I, in an attempt to be a safe jumper, have asked the most questions and attempted to find the best coaching on break off techniques, and landing. I think a proper breakoff is imperative. Thanks for posting your near incident.

stay safe

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[billvon 3,107]

I'm a little confused.

>No problem, I just pushed off and looked up to see where the rest of
> the group was. I then looked down to see the low person and to my
> surprise, they were waving off and pulling right under me!

>He was open by 2500'.

Did the problem occur midway through the dive, or on breakoff? If he pulled before breakoff (i.e. 5000 feet) that seems like a very serious issue, but if he was open by 2500 feet it sounds more like he pulled around 3000, which would ordinarily be after breakoff. Still a serious issue, but at least during breakoff people are more aware that people can track under them and deploy.

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

As time went on it got a little goosey and at one point I ended up on the 100 jump person's back. No problem, I just pushed off and looked up to see where the rest of the group was. I then looked down to see the low person and to my surprise, they were waving off and pulling right under me!

He was open by 2500'.

Like Bill, I'm a bit confused....what altitude did you end up on his back? It sounds like it was fairly low if you got off him, looked up, looked back down and he was deploying...and under canopy by 2500'. What was planned, and actual, breakoff altitude?

Quote

I was able to track out of the way in time but the rest of the group went right past the opening canopy.

This makes it sound like the group was still together when he deployed. Please clarify.

Mike

[KCJumper 0]

I'm extremely confused. If you only have a hundred jumps then at best you have a c license. Which means you need to be under a good canopy by 2500 feet. If the jumper doesn't have his c he needed to be under one at 3000. What was the planned time for break off. I thought you were supposed to break off for your lowest jumper. So that would be closer to 4 or 4,500. Anyway glad to hear that everyone is ok.

Not to point fingers but as much as it was his fault for throwing out below you wasn't it the groups responsibility to make sure the skill of the dive wasn't above his head.

Patrick

[RippedCord 0]

The USPA SIM mentions deployment, not "under canopy." Therefore, if you are following USPA BSRs:

Any group of six or more that has an "A" licensed diver participating must break off at 5000 feet.

SIM Section 2-1
G. MINIMUM OPENING ALTITUDES [E]
Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:
1. Tandem jumps–4,500 feet AGL
2. All students and A-license holders–3,000 feet AGL
3. B-license holders–2,500 feet AGL
4. C- and D-license holders–2,000 feet AGL

SIM Section 6-1
C. BREAKOFF
1. The minimum breakoff altitude should be—
a. for groups of five or fewer, at least 1,500 feet higher than the highest planned deployment altitude in the group (not counting one camera flyer)
b. for groups of six or more, at least 2,000 feet higher than the highest planned deployment altitude in the group (not counting a signaling deployment or camera flyers)

AMDG

[Chrisky 2]

Looks like the breakoff didn't work at all.

If you pushed off his back, looked up and down to see him deploy (open by 2500, obviously the right time to deploy unless briefed differently), it seems to me that the group failed to separate at the proper altitude.

IMHO after getting off him, altitude awareness given, it should have been time to separate already, meaning you definitely tracking away?
Especially if it is a low time jumper, briefing should pay special attention to breakoff and separation proceedings so that everybody can get away clear.
If i do a first jump with anyone i haven't jumped with before, i pay very special attention to breakoff and separation procedures, as i have been in close calls on two jumps myself (of which i was the reason in the first one).

Edited to add: Of course, looking before you pull is always good!

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[TALONSKY 0]

I agree with everyone else here. I think if he was saddled out at 2500 AGL (and he was the low timer on the jump), the rest of you should get yelled at for being taking it down way too low. As jumpers in a load we need to be aware of the experience level on each jump and more importantly where each person in the jump feels comfortable pulling at. Then plan break off 1000 to 1500 feet higher to allow for seperation. This jumper did screw up by not looking above him before pulling but I would really have to say everyone else on that dive made bigger more dangerous mistake by not breaking off at the appropriate altitude.
Kirk

[bmcd308 0]

When I had 100 jumps, 2500 was in the basement. If you are taking a 100 jump person on a big rw jump, you have to plan a high breakoff, because their "normal" pull altitude is a whole lot higher than the 2000 feet (or less) that some people (other than me) consider a reasonable opening altitude.

I have never been one to take it low, and while I agree that a good look and wave is an integral part of the group skydive pull sequence, you have to understand that at 100 jumps this guy probably started feeling low at 4 grand.

When I was a relatively new jumper, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to be in the base on some big group jumps. The groups all contained only one low-timer (me), and at breakoff I pulled in place at 5 grand (i.e. I waited for the breakoff signal and once no one was near me I pulled). The other jumpers tracked and pulled at 2500.

If you are going to take a low-timer on a big group jump, do it with the thought in the back of your head that you need to watch out for them, and remember that they probably pull higher than people who have years and years in the sport.

BMcD...

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www.jumpelvis.com

[hottamaly 1]

let me clarify...We were nearing the end of the dive and it was the 2 of us as a 2 way with two way pods on each of us. We were trying to reconnect (as we turned the pieces) when I landed on his back. It took us down a ways because it took a few seconds to get off his back. It took me all of 3-4 seconds to look at him and back to the group and then back at him. When I pushed off of him, he dropped further down and panicked and just tossed it out without ever looking as to where he was. I'm just guessing where he opened up compared to my opening altitude which was about 1800'.
Sorry for the confusion, I hope this clears some of it up.
It was a 6 way (not too big of a group) and planed breakoff was 4500' which was agreed on by all. this event started about 5000-5500'. The other jumpers were starting their breakoff on time. I guess a video would have shown and explained this much better than I.
All I was trying to say was look first, not to anylize this to death. Sorry.

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[Chrisky 2]

For a 100 jump person, a six way IS big.
If the others had started separation (and paid attention to what was going on with you guys, how could he pull through the rest of the group?
Better analyze something like this to death then find him not trying to learn from it...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

When I had 100 jumps, 2500 was in the basement. [snip]

When I was a relatively new jumper, I was fortunate to have the opportunity to be in the base on some big group jumps. The groups all contained only one low-timer (me), and at breakoff I pulled in place at 5 grand (i.e. I waited for the breakoff signal and once no one was near me I pulled). The other jumpers tracked and pulled at 2500.
.

I really hate to hear these tales - again.
I thought the practice of letting new kids on loads over their heads did not happen any more.
oh wait -it happened last year to a friend of mine. (he's dead now)

To any & all of you new guys - if an organizer ever says something like 'Hey - you just stay where you are & pull' - get off the load.

1. If they think you can't track well enough to get clear air, by asking you to pull in place, then you probably do NOT have the requisite skills to be on that load.

2. If you 'feel better' because you don't have to worry about tracking and finding clear air, then you do NOT have the requisite skills to be on that load.

3. All sorts of things can happen to make this plan of you pulling in place go wrong.

4. You need to deal with possibily being low and having to pull at the lowest assigned pull altitude - usually below 2500.

5. It is not good fortune to be on a load over your head. It is adding extra risks to all on the load.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[12bhi 0]

I'm by know means experienced any form of relative work,except for my AFF insructor docking me,
making sure I dont flail like a fish. I dont have much
experience in skydiving-"hands on".But over the past
couple years I've done extensive research on this new love of my life.With most my present knowledge
gained from this web site...But someday soon.I will
no longer be a student,as I advance into the peter
pan world......
The subject of this post contains one of my highest
anticipated fears of being off student status.Whether
it be 20 jumps or 100.There just seems to be to many oh shit scenarios that could end an ispiring skydivers career life,not to mention the guy or gal
with a 1000 plus jumps... So if this thread could stay on the front burner for awhile,I think myself and others would appreciate any additional knowledge on how to stay out of this situation until
were at least ready to deal with it.

[Remster 30]

Quote

For a 100 jump person, a six way IS big.

But not in any way too big if properly coached.

Remster

[bmcd308 0]

You're probably right. I'd like to think the jumps I was on were different, but maybe they were not. I was very thoroughly briefed for these jumps.

They were an 8-way and a 10-way, and I hope it makes you feel better to know that there were more AFF-Is in the group than jumpers without AFF-Is. I was the only person who was not a seriously high-time jumper.

I was doing OK on smaller group jumps, and I could track well enough to get separation if I had to. And I would have choked back the tears and held the pilot chute until I had clear air or hit 2 grand if it had come down to it.

But you're still probably right.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Chrisky 2]

Didn't say that...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[jumpgod 0]

i'll second that the jumper who pulled could have been (needs to be) more aware as this has happened to me. jumper pulled out below as they were paniced about a cloud deck and i almost ate fabric. we need to pull out where we said we would.

but.... the lower jumper always has the right of way. it's up to the individuals above to be aware of his/her position and make it aware (to best of ability) to others.

it's not an easy whos right and wrong. 'for God sakes be careful out there'.

"dude, where's my main?"

[jazzjumper 0]

I don't think anyone can over analyze an "oh shit, how did this happen kind of skydive." Frankly, things like this need to happen to teach us.

First, everyone landed safely.
Second, you recognize there is a problem.
Third, 100 jumps should plenty for a 6-way if the person has been doing belly work.

So what went wrong? Well, 100-jumper didn't check his/her alti and make a good call. Also, experienced jumper did an unplanned rodeo and scared younger jumper. It happens, everyone dealt with it, even though there were mistakes.

Yes, one of the more scary things in freefall is to see a pilot chute come out directly below you. You all made it out safely.

So how can it be avoided again? Well, if this jumper has his/her head on straight, jump with them more. Try some two ways where there is some planned instability. Basically, fruit loop them...but warn them. Being unstable, and getting stable is pretty basic survival skills. Keeping track of altitude is as well. Learning some of these skills with small groups and then going up is great practice. Put them in tough situations, and watch them grow.

Now, there are some who never learn. I know people woith 500-2500 jumps who are a bit scary from breakoff until my canopy is touching the ground. Some just won't listen, so best just save yourself in that instance. That could mean leaving a big way just a tad early, or simply not being in the same formation as Dr. Dangerous.

Bottom line...teach and help others to grow safely. We lose too many. If they are beyond your help...pass them along to someone who can help them.

Peace...

No matter how good she looks, someone, somewhere is
sick of her shit!

[KolibrieLinda 0]

Bottom line...teach and help others to grow safely. We lose too many. If they are beyond your help...pass them along to someone who can help them.

I totally agree and I'm definetely gonna ask, ask, ask and learn!!

I don't quote I'd rather say something homemade