Champions?

[KATO33 0]

Has there ever been an all female national or world champion in 4-way or 8-way?
The reason I ask is it seems to me that women would have an advantage when it come to skydiving being more flexible which in turn makes for more fluid movement.
And if there hasn't been an all female champion can someone explain why. (Maybe I have the physics all wrong).
My only other theory is Men are so much more stronger mentally than women are, it overcomes any physical advantage women may have.

Blue Skies Black Death

[happythoughts 0]

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My only other theory is Men are so much more stronger mentally than women are, it overcomes any physical advantage women may have.

I feel pretty strong mentally, but I'm not sure what that sentence says.

[quade 4]

At the world level there is a separate competition for "all female" teams. I place that in quotes because oddly, the camera flyer is allowed to be male.

As for any other distiction between male and female skydivers with regard to abilities or advantages of one over the other -- that is, in my opinion, just sexist crap.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[KATO33 0]

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As for any other distiction between male and female skydivers with regard to abilities or advantages of one over the other -- that is, in my opinion, just sexist crap.

I agree so who are the female national champions??
Or what are the solid reasons there aren't any??

Or has there been an ocassion when the the world female champions out pointed the world male champions using the same dive pool?.

Blue Skies Black Death

[quade 4]

The "World Parachuting Championships" are held every two years. The next one will be held in Gap, France from September 6 to 13.

Information http://www.mondial03.com/index.php and http://omniskore.com/comp/2003/WPC/2003_wpc.htm

The women's category events have changed over time -- sometimes dropping events or adding events.

The US Womens 4-way team is http://www.teamsynchronicity.com/

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lauras 0]

I know there's a whole lot of hoopla over the women's category in 4-way, but no one every questions the separate men's & women's categories in Style & Accuracy.

Any thoughts as to why?

[quade 4]

Well, I think it's because without separate male and female categories in S&A, no men in the US would stand a chance of winning!

I mean, Ms. Sterns is pretty freekin' dominant. Or at least she has been over the course of her career. Elisa Feldt was the female champion last year. The two of them they would have done quite well in the men's category.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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Well, I think it's because without separate male and female categories in S&A, no men in the US would stand a chance of winning!

And let's not forget Tanya Garcia! She won her last World's Competition and scored higher than all the men as well!

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[wmw999 2,588]

The overwhelming majority of skydivers are men. It's not that surprising to me that the majority of champions are, also.

And hi, Kato-- haven't seen you here much lately. Hopefully it's been a real life interfering with postwhoring.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[KATO33 0]

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And hi, Kato-- haven't seen you here much lately. Hopefully it's been a real life interfering with postwhoring.

I suppose real life has kinda kicked in. Wife just gave birrth to the new additions(Twins) to the houseHold.
Funny I never really thought of myself as a PostWhore.
See attached

Blue Skies Black Death

[wmw999 2,588]

Congratulations, they're beautiful babies -- and no, you weren't ever a postwhore. At all!

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[okalb 104]

Although I don't believe that men are any better than women at formation skydiving, I do believe that the women's only 4-way category gives women a chance to be seen. The sport has been male dominated for so many years that very few women ever get the chance to show the airspeeds that they are good enough. Take Eliana for example, she is as good if not better than any man out there, but had she not been on the US womens team in Spain 2 years ago, I am not sure she would have gotten the recognition that she needed to be invited onto airspeed.

The other point I would like to make is that at the world level, all of the other countries have a womens team. Therefor, whether we believe in the category or not, I feel VERY strongly that the US should be represented. The USPA which doesn't believe that there should be a womens FS category has done everything in their power to keep the US from having a womens team at the world meet this year and in the future.

By the way Quade, this is the last year that womens teams will be allowed a male camera flyer. As of next year, they must be female as well.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Ron 10]

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I know there's a whole lot of hoopla over the women's category in 4-way, but no one every questions the
separate men's & women's categories in Style & Accuracy.

Any thoughts as to why?

Yep, back when Style and ACC was the only comp...Women were still expected to be barefoot and pregnant.

Once something gets started its hard to stop it.

I think the Female class is stupid as hell. (Now I am friends with 3 of the current US team, and love them and are glad for them, but I still think its a stupid class).

Its saying that women are weaker. I think Lise Aune, Eliana, Dawn English, Stearns, The woman from PD Sanapsi and the women on the Russian team...ect. Would dissagree. And so do I.

However as long as the IPC sanctions an female event I hope the US sends a team....Which will be harder this next year since the USPA says that a womens team will have to place better than the female Bronze at the prior world meet to be the US team... Again the USPA doing stupid things.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bbarnhouse 0]

In the US artistic events (freestyle) the men and women compete together. Internationally they are seperate events. I have been told the USPA does this for cost saving measures.
My contention at least for Freestyle is that comparing men and women in this event is akin to comparing apples and oranges.

[lauras 0]

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However as long as the IPC sanctions an female event I hope the US sends a team....Which will be harder this next year since the USPA says that a womens team will have to place better than the female Bronze at the prior world meet to be the US team... Again the USPA doing stupid things.

That just kills me. Just know that this is a rule that the Competition committee came up with FOR THE WOMEN'S 4-WAY TEAM ONLY. So, Synchronicity has 3 weeks to go from a Porter exit to an Otter exit, after training solely on the Porter since New Years. Other side of the plane, different size, different memory. No big deal, right? No other event has to meet this requirement. I would pay cash money to see a single member of the Competition committee even try to meet their own arbitrary rules.

As far as the merits of the existence of a women's class go - well, get rid of the women's class in Style and Accuracy first since it's been around since forever. When that happens, sure, I'd be happy to discuss eliminating a women-only competition class in RW.

[Ron 10]

Well the USPA combined them due to the fact that you and I could have entered Men's Open freestyle and gotten a silver with no training....But we had people in the lower classes getting a gold.

There are not enough people doing freestyle to have 2 classes for exp, and 2 for sex.

It was this way for several years where the Bronze was not being awarded.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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As far as the merits of the existence of a women's class go - well, get rid of the women's class in Style and
Accuracy first since it's been around since forever. When that happens, sure, I'd be happy to discuss
eliminating a women-only competition class in RW.

So are you saying that women ARE weaker? That they can't hang with the guys?

I don't agree with that, and I think its a shame that the IPC does.

But as long as the IPC says there is a womens class I hope the US continues to win it.

I still think it is stupid however.

And I am gonna call USPA on this Bull Shit they are playing now. How can they say its only for women? Its a nice sexual discrimination case if ya aks me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Well the USPA combined them due to the fact that you and I could have entered Men's Open freestyle and gotten a silver with no training....But we had people in the lower classes getting a gold.

There are not enough people doing freestyle to have 2 classes for exp, and 2 for sex.

It was this way for several years where the Bronze was not being awarded

I understand this. My contention is as stated above.
BB

[lauras 0]

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So are you saying that women ARE weaker? That they can't hang with the guys?

I don't agree with that, and I think its a shame that the IPC does.

I do not believe that women are weaker skydivers - and where or when did I ever say that? In fact, I believe the women on Synchronicity have posted higher competition scores than you, Ron.

Synchronicity, unlike Airspeed, the Knights, Majik, XL, and all the other women's teams at the World Meet, is not full-time and is totally self-financed. No big cash handouts from anyone, including the USPA. So why begrudge them the opportunity to win in a class that the IPC/FAI sanctions? If the women's class didn't exist at the World Meet, I'd be willing to bet that Jaimie, Jaqi, Kim & Sally would still be out there, competing competing competing. You know these women - tell me how they're weak.

I'd also like to know where the IPC/FAI calls women the weaker sex. Let me know.

[quade 4]

This is going to be one of those threads that no matter what I say, -somebody- is going to take it the wrong way. So please try to understand what I'm actually saying and don't assume anything beyond it.

As long as the FAI has a women's category, yes, obviously, the USPA ought to send a delegation and I fully support and applaud anyone associated with that delegation.

As long as the FAI has a women's category, yes, I believe it should be composed completely of women, including the camera flyer. Yes, this will change in the future, but why the wait?

If a person buys into the logic that a women's category is required to give women a chance to be recognized and exposed (I don't, but some do), then it should logically follow that the camera flyer slot should also be filled with a female camera flyer for the exact same reasons. I made this argument here and else ware (including writing the FAI several times) for the last several years. Again, this looks like it will be changing in the future, but why the wait?

That said, I do not buy into the basic argument and as a matter of fact I think that in a larger sense it is counter-productive to the women's movement to have a separate class of anything.

All one has to do is look at Nina Kuebler to realize that there really is nothing holding women back in 4-way. It seems to me that she got exactly where she did by dedication and not a leg up.

And it's the concept of "getting a leg up" or giving "women a chance to be seen" that sticks in my craw.

The implication is that women actually need this. Why? If a person is good then people will notice. If a person is dedicated and exceptionally talented they will succeed. Period.

"Separate but equal" doesn't work. It only reinforces stereotypes because it logically says that one group has an unfair disadvantage (for instance weaker mentally or physically) in some way. Maybe it doesn't say it in so many words, but it is the only logical conclusion a person can make.

Like I said, I think the larger concept is counter-productive. (And somebody is going to take this the wrong way anyway.)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DJL 235]

"so much more stronger mentally" ?

Unfortunately, at least in this thread, we can't claim to be "more smarter"?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Ron 10]

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In fact, I
believe the women on Synchronicity have posted higher competition scores than you, Ron.

Acually not yet. They did a 16.5...I did a 16.6.
However I think they will kill that this next week.

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Synchronicity, unlike Airspeed, the Knights, Majik, XL, and all the other women's teams at the World Meet,
is not full-time and is totally self-financed. No big cash handouts from anyone, including the USPA. So why
begrudge them the opportunity to win in a class that the IPC/FAI sanctions?

Who is begrudging them? Not me, I said that I think the class is stupid, but as long as the IPC has it I hope the US has the best team...And for that matter I am glad 3 of my friends are on it...One of which I put on her first 4way team. I just think it is not needed.

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I'd be willing to bet that Jaimie, Jaqi, Kim & Sally would still be out there,
competing competing competing.

Yep in fact if you look at the % of women at the nationals on the top ten teams there is a greater % of women than the USPA says the % of women that skydive,

So add in that there is a larger % of women in the top ten than total women skydivers, plus the high caliber of so many women skydivers...And show me why there needs to be a womens class?

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You know these women - tell me how they're weak.

I never said they were...In fact I think them having a womens class is stupid, since I think women can be as good as men...Just ask Sally how I fought to get here on her first team.

I don't think women are weaker...so I think the class is stupid.

You tell me why you need a womens class?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[okalb 104]

I don't disagree. I don't feel that men and women should be any different when it comes to FS. I do however think it gives women a stage to be seen, which I think is a healthy thing.

I also feel that if there is a separate class, then the camera flyer should be female as well. That goes back to the discussion of whether or not the camera flyer is REALLY part of the team. That is a whole different discussion. I have spoken at length to Tony Hathaway about this one and he truly feels that the camera flyer is NOT a part of the team. His attitude is that as the camera flyer, you can only hurt the team by screwing up, but cannot help in any way. He also feels that the only reason the camera flyer was made "part of the team" after the 99 nationals was so that they would not have to give out rejumps if the camera flyer screwed up.

All that being said, I still feel very strongly that if the FAI has a womens class, we should have and support a team. The USPA has done everything they can to stop this years team from going and prevent any teams from going in the future.

Just my 2 cents.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[lauras 0]

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I don't think women are weaker...so I think the class is stupid.

You tell me why you need a womens class?

I don't think there needs to be a women's class. But one exists at the World levels. Why one exists is kind of a mystery to me - no one has been able to get a straight answer as far as I can tell.

Like I said before, eliminate the women's classes in all the IPC events and you've got yourself something to stand on. Not just 4-way or 8-way, but Style & Accuracy, Freestyle, Skysurfing, Paraski, etc.

If the USPA has decided that they no longer want to recognize the women's class in RW, then they sure as hell better be ready to start disallowing the division of sexes in the other events as well. What, does the competition committee only have it in for women who like 4-way?

This debate is all kinds of stupid. No matter what I say or anyone else says, someone will interpret it the way they want (which is what Quade said earlier, and boy oh boy, do I know what you're talking about).

[quade 4]

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I have spoken at length to Tony Hathaway about this one and he truly feels that the camera flyer is NOT a part of the team.

I know many camera flyers that would disagree with Tony's assertion. Totally different topic though.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver