Legal Question

[nightjumps 1]

If there's any legal types out there, I am curious about the question of ownership in the situation of a plane wreck/damage due to a recent incident.

1. Who is the legal owner of the aircraft in the situation where one may have made a deposit (or full payment) and an incident occurs (maybe a bad landing that collapses the nose gear, bangs a wing, or whatever) between portal to portal for delivery?
2.Who's insurance company pays?
3. If its the buyer and the buyer was waiting for delivery to have the insurance company inspect before issuing the policy, is the buyer just SOL?
4. Or, is insurance required by the buyer before purchase?

Please, please, please don't want to get into a speculation session about recent incidents.

Its just a broad situational question that any pilot or new DZO should want to know for the consideration of an aircraft purchase for purchase contract wording.

[mr2mk1g 10]

easy - it depends.



sorry cant be any more help but it really will depend on the contract negotiated between the seller and purchaser. Given that planes are so expensive there will probably almost always be some form of formal contract in place.

In the absence of a written contract the actual transference of legal ownership of the plane can again depend on a number of things such as how precise the agreement was and how each side were to pay/act.

Basically the plane ought to remain the legal property of the seller until its delivered or collected. (if collected and crashed that’s the buyers prob, if crashed en route to delivery MAY be the sellers problem.

However, depending on the agreement and what the buyer has done, they may well have an equitable interest in the plane even before they take delivery, or even before they have paid anything. DONT ask me questions on the difference between legal and equitable rights to property.... that’s a whole subject in its self. [Legal = the paper rights, equitable = the right to have (at least some of) the paper rights]

Given so many variables im afraid it would be difficult to actually give a response. If you were to narrow the question a little I could answer... but probably wouldn’t as I may be answering a REAL situation.

[nightjumps 1]

So, the bottom line is... have it in writing before you make the deposit or payment. And, if you are the buyer, have insurance in place before you hand them a check.

Thanks, Matt.

[mr2mk1g 10]

have insurance in place before you take ownership of the item - whether its a plane/car/house - its the same.

if its an expensive item have a written contract and have the contract litterally specify a time (to the minute) when ownership passes from one person to the other.

That way everyone KNOWs who owns what and when. 90% of contract law is about how to sort out the mess people get into when they dont make sure everyone knows whats happening.

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

This is the last thing you want to hear, BUT, contact an attorney who specializes in contract and estate law!! Be sure that attorney is board certified to practice that specialty, too. A little money up front to a legal eagle will more than pay for bad juju on the backside of a legal mess! Good Luck!

*****************
Attitude is everything!

[sducoach 0]

Keith,

Let me know if this is for you or just curiosity. Brenda is a paralegal and deals with contracts & litigation.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[nightjumps 1]

Curiousity at this point. May become necessity next year. I remember "something" about FOB, enroute and delivery issues in business law, but its hazy right now... hence the question.

Should I have to do something next year, I think my best course (which the Porter incident brought to light), would be to 1) get insurance first, 2) contractually define deposit as "intent" to purchase, 3) ownership begins upon delivery should it have to be ferried, 4) Seller responsible until delivery, payment and keys in hand.

You might just push this past her, but there is definately no sense of urgency.

Thanks, J.E.

[sducoach 0]

When she gets home tonight, I'll fix her dinner, light the candles, put on some smoooooth music, pull back the covers,

and when she falls asleep, I'll check her law books!!!!!

All for you Bigun!!!

Done deal.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[lawrocket 3]

Here's another opinion from a legal type.

The question cannot be answered with the facts you stated. It depends on the contract. If there is no contract, or if the contract did not contemplate a plane wreck on the way, then it comes down to where the suit is filed.

It also depends on that state. Different states have different laws. However, as this is a sale of goods, I would expect that the Uniform Commercial Code, if adopted in this instance, would govern this sale.

Sometimes, the sale is final when the contract is executed. Other times, the sale is final when the goods are delivered and accepted by the buyer.

There are so many damned variables to this hypothetical, it is impossible to answer here.

Been too long since I took the Bar. Thank God!!!

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

You are correct about the FOB and stuff. We don't know what the contract stated regarding delivery.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[nightjumps 1]

Thanks. It appears more & more apparent that having an attorney draft up a contract for purchase with those items I outlined above "might" save me a lot of money in the case of the unfortunate. You're right... a lot of variables to consider, but being well-informed would help me during the discussions with a contract attorney.

Thanks all... I got what I needed.

[Jib 0]

Quote

Should I have to do something next year, I think my best course (which the Porter incident brought to light), would be to 1) get insurance first, 2) contractually define deposit as "intent" to purchase, 3) ownership begins upon delivery should it have to be ferried, 4) Seller responsible until delivery, payment and keys in hand.

You should define delivery as a specific location and time (e.g. date, tied-down, takeoff, etc), state who is responsible to get it there (hire pilot, fuel, etc), specifically state that the risk of loss passes at that point and retain the option to buy it after a problem (in the event it needs to be repaired, e.g. engine problems and require it up to a maximum cost for the repairs like X % of the price). You may also want to make the deal subject to a final inspection at that location (at your expense). There are other things to consider/negotiate when the time comes too.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[nightjumps 1]

THanks for the additional info, Jib

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

When she gets home tonight, I'll fix her dinner, light the candles, put on some smoooooth music, pull back the covers,

and when she falls asleep, I'll check her law books!!!!!

All for you Bigun!!!

Done deal.
***
Ah, what a suckass.

Blues,

J.E.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals