skycat 0
I think if they keep the touching to only nessesary adjustments, (tandem harnesses seem to have tons of straps) and tell the students what they are doing and have the student hold the harness in the right possition while they tighten things down, the student will be more at ease.
Also what Derek does when a small female AFF student needs her leg straps tied together is call me over to explain how to do and and show her the 1st time.
Also what Derek does when a small female AFF student needs her leg straps tied together is call me over to explain how to do and and show her the 1st time.
Fly it like you stole it!
billvon 3,107
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>Things like the male JM's not touching a female students chest
>strap inappropriately, or making them sit on their lap . . .
While it's important for the TM to act professionally, it's also important to tell the student that the TM WILL be touching them in places they don't ordinarily get touched to put the harness on, attach the harness to the rig, do a handles check etc. That way they can decide beforehand if they are OK with that, and it doesn't come as a shock.
>strap inappropriately, or making them sit on their lap . . .
While it's important for the TM to act professionally, it's also important to tell the student that the TM WILL be touching them in places they don't ordinarily get touched to put the harness on, attach the harness to the rig, do a handles check etc. That way they can decide beforehand if they are OK with that, and it doesn't come as a shock.
Exactly, Bill. I make it very clear in the initial briefing that tandem jumping is VERY close contact, and if anyone has a problem with that, then they may want to rethink it. I make it a point to talk the student through everything that I am doing as I am putting them in the harness and then, later, hooking them up.
Chuck
Chuck
I think women need to have thicker skin in this sport.
Sitting on a guys lap or having him do your cheast strap is about the least of your worries......you are about to jump out of an airplane....
Obviously there is a line that can be crossed but I think most guys aren't stupid enough to risk their jobs to "cop a feel"!
If your one of these "sensitive/phsyco" chicks....I strongly urge you to request a female tandem master of just take AFF level 1!
scott
Sitting on a guys lap or having him do your cheast strap is about the least of your worries......you are about to jump out of an airplane....
Obviously there is a line that can be crossed but I think most guys aren't stupid enough to risk their jobs to "cop a feel"!
If your one of these "sensitive/phsyco" chicks....I strongly urge you to request a female tandem master of just take AFF level 1!
scott
Jimbo 0
QuoteObviously there is a line that can be crossed but I think most guys aren't stupid enough to risk their jobs to "cop a feel"!
Unfortunately, concerns like this one aren't made up; Beverly wasn't sitting around one day thinking "what's the worst that could possibly happen?". Concerns like Beverly's are here because things have happened in the past. People have engaged in exactly the conduct that Beverly wishes to prevent, it's sad, but it's happened.
-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.
KATO33 0
When I did my first tandem that close contact and somewhat embarrassing touching was in the waiver. I would have run around the DZ butt naked with video if that were necessary for a safe JUMP!
Blue Skies Black Death
Blue Skies Black Death
Scott, out of curiousity, why should you have to sit on anyones lap? I didn't do a tandem, so I don't know if this is normal practice... or is this in the plane?
Personally, i'm not overly sensitive about touching, etc... I do think that smelling like beer might be a problem for a lot of people, tho.. I mean, their life is in the TMs hands... another reason I feel safer by myself.
Angela.
Personally, i'm not overly sensitive about touching, etc... I do think that smelling like beer might be a problem for a lot of people, tho.. I mean, their life is in the TMs hands... another reason I feel safer by myself.
Angela.
why would a student sit in the TM's lap?
In a King Air, everyone sit's in each others laps. 2 rows of people with their backs towards the front of the plane.
Even in an Otter or Skyvan, they still need to attach the harness to the TM before exit.
It's good that they have that in the waiver!
scott
In a King Air, everyone sit's in each others laps. 2 rows of people with their backs towards the front of the plane.
Even in an Otter or Skyvan, they still need to attach the harness to the TM before exit.
It's good that they have that in the waiver!
scott
Quotemale JM's not touching a female students chest strap inappropriately
First of all, with female students I am a gentleman, and treat them with respect. When I adjust the chest strap, I will do what is necessary, explaining what I am doing. If I make inadvertant contact with a breast, I say excuse me. When I tighten the diagonals in the back, I brace my hip against them so I don't pull them all over the room, but I explain what I am doing. If I need her to spread her legs apart to adjust the legstraps, I ask her to spread her feet apart. It does the same thing and is much less innuendo-ish. When I want their helmet strapped to their chest strap for the walk to the plane, I ask them to do it.
Quotemaking them sit on their lap
I ask all my students, male and female, large and small, to sit in my lap. I prefer that method because 1) there is much less moving around in the plane, 2) I can get them tightened down effectively and evenly - every time, 3) I don't need to ask the rest of the full Otter load to "move down for the tandems" because I create my own extra space, and 4) I am a big guy, so I can handle any size person in my lap without discomfort.
Quotesmoking while briefing a student
I don't smoke, but if I did I would save it for a break in the action, not when briefing a student.
Quotesmelling like beer from the night before
"Zoo breath" is just bad business. I am careful to always have gum so any offending onion-breath or whatever does not interfere with the student's experience. I also swap shirts throughout the day so I am not soaking them with my sweaty jumpsuit.
Bottom line: I make every effort to be professional and to make the experience all about the student and not all about me or about the money. I get a lot of fantasitc results that way. I learned from some really great people, and their advice has served me well.
Great post - BTW!
Arrive Safely
John
John
billvon 3,107
>but I think most guys aren't stupid enough to risk their jobs to "cop a feel"!
Unfortunately, some number of them are.
Unfortunately, some number of them are.
QuoteWhat if an instructor brings a date out for a jump? Do they have to break-up? I consider the packers, manifest, etc staff. I see no sexual harassment issues with them dating students.
Well, of course they don't break up. There are exceptions, use commons sense here.
As for females on tandems.
I'm the same as Slotperfect. I explain what I'm doing, I apologize for the action and excuse myself if some inadvertant contact was made.
Students are at the DZ to skydive, not get felt up, hit on, etc. Treat them with respect.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
Tonto 1
QuoteIf your one of these "sensitive/phsyco" chicks....I strongly urge you to request a female tandem master of just take AFF level 1!
scott
Read the 1st line of her post. She's part of the training staff. She doesn't need an AFF L1.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
wmw999 2,584
QuoteStudents are at the DZ to skydive, not get felt up, hit on, etc. Treat them with respect.
I think the way to look at it is to consider how you would like your good-looking mother treated (assuming she is good looking). How would you like your father treated?
Now -- don't expect a "sir" or "ma'am" from the JM, but treat them as a customer whom you would like to see return.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
QuoteI think women need to have thicker skin in this sport.
If your one of these "sensitive/phsyco" chicks....I strongly urge you to request a female tandem master of just take AFF level 1!
scott
First off Scott, you live the the USA and California, the lawsuit capital of the world, it has nothing to do with thick skin and especially if its the person's first jump than extra professionalism needs to be displayed.. There have been TM's in the past that DO touch inappropriately and are gross and rude about it and they need to be fired and ratings pulled.
I had no problem when I did my AFF having my JM touch my thighs, chest strap, whatever.
Not wanting to be touched inappropriately or talked to inappropriately by someone you just met for the first time and are paying does not make a girl psyco, a guy maybe, but not a girl.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
Eloquently said, Aggie Dave!
*****************
Attitude is everything!
Attitude is everything!
Beverly 1
Thanks everyone for your input, it has been extremly valuable. It will form the basis of a code of conduct for all our training staff from now on.
Just a few comments. The sitting on the TM lap was not in the plane or while kitting up, it was general and with Inst staff. Once you are in the plane, you are definitely one and the same.
Gum / mints are a great idea.
We don't sue in SA, we just don't go back......
Thanks again.
I think true friendship is under-rated
Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa
Just a few comments. The sitting on the TM lap was not in the plane or while kitting up, it was general and with Inst staff. Once you are in the plane, you are definitely one and the same.
Gum / mints are a great idea.
We don't sue in SA, we just don't go back......
Thanks again.
I think true friendship is under-rated
Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa
mikkey 0
Interesting thread. The following is from the Australian Parachute Federations July news letter and shows how easy you can get into trouble:
"Harassment allegation
A Victorian tandem-master thought his DZ owner
was joking about a sexual harassment complaint
from a passenger. But it was no laughing matter.
The woman was adamant she’d been indecently
assaulted, the TM was equally strong in his
denials, and we needed to resolve it all as quickly
and quietly as possible.
The woman claimed the TM pushed his erection
against her in freefall and continued to do so after
the canopy opened. While the video showed
nothing untoward, the woman was very distressed
when she lodged her complaint with the APF, and
her furious boyfriend was demanding action.
As the VPC’s Harassment Contact Officer, I was
not expected to ‘investigate’ as such, or make a
conclusive finding. My task was to explain the
woman’s options and see if her complaint could be
resolved informally. Most importantly, she needed
to be reassured that the system was taking her
complaint seriously, and that it wouldn’t happen
again.
Hopefully, the case has now been resolved with
many delicate discussions, a refund cheque and a
very carefully worded letter. The DZ and the TM
maintain their innocence, and suggest the woman
must have felt part of the harness or jumpsuit.
Apart from the woman’s own account, there’s no
other evidence to support her allegation. But
we’ve all learned a few lessons from the
experience. .
Firstly, the TM must be very grateful for the video
in this case. If the jump wasn’t recorded, imagine
how he’d fare if the case ended up in court with
his word against hers.
It was also interesting to note the woman’s
surprise at the physical closeness involved in a
tandem skydive. She’d seen photos and videos,
but she wasn’t fully prepared for being attached so
tightly against a stranger for so long. (She was
also carrying some personal baggage of her own,
but I won’t go into that here.) As a result of this
incident, the APF has added a waiver clause
about the close physical contact in our sport. TMs
might also consider stressing this point in their
briefings.
Unfortunately, a few too many people became
aware of the allegation, leading to uninformed
discussion. The TM even received text messages
from his amused mates.
Well, as I said earlier, it wasn’t funny. But it was a
timely wake up call. Sexual harassment is a real
issue, and it’s a potentially expensive one if a case
succeeds in court. We all need to watch our own
behaviour and keep an eye on others around us.
But, keep an open mind too! Nice blokes have
been known to cross the line, and sleazebags can
be the innocent victims of a misunderstanding.
Kelly Graham, VPC Harassment Contact Officer"
"Harassment allegation
A Victorian tandem-master thought his DZ owner
was joking about a sexual harassment complaint
from a passenger. But it was no laughing matter.
The woman was adamant she’d been indecently
assaulted, the TM was equally strong in his
denials, and we needed to resolve it all as quickly
and quietly as possible.
The woman claimed the TM pushed his erection
against her in freefall and continued to do so after
the canopy opened. While the video showed
nothing untoward, the woman was very distressed
when she lodged her complaint with the APF, and
her furious boyfriend was demanding action.
As the VPC’s Harassment Contact Officer, I was
not expected to ‘investigate’ as such, or make a
conclusive finding. My task was to explain the
woman’s options and see if her complaint could be
resolved informally. Most importantly, she needed
to be reassured that the system was taking her
complaint seriously, and that it wouldn’t happen
again.
Hopefully, the case has now been resolved with
many delicate discussions, a refund cheque and a
very carefully worded letter. The DZ and the TM
maintain their innocence, and suggest the woman
must have felt part of the harness or jumpsuit.
Apart from the woman’s own account, there’s no
other evidence to support her allegation. But
we’ve all learned a few lessons from the
experience. .
Firstly, the TM must be very grateful for the video
in this case. If the jump wasn’t recorded, imagine
how he’d fare if the case ended up in court with
his word against hers.
It was also interesting to note the woman’s
surprise at the physical closeness involved in a
tandem skydive. She’d seen photos and videos,
but she wasn’t fully prepared for being attached so
tightly against a stranger for so long. (She was
also carrying some personal baggage of her own,
but I won’t go into that here.) As a result of this
incident, the APF has added a waiver clause
about the close physical contact in our sport. TMs
might also consider stressing this point in their
briefings.
Unfortunately, a few too many people became
aware of the allegation, leading to uninformed
discussion. The TM even received text messages
from his amused mates.
Well, as I said earlier, it wasn’t funny. But it was a
timely wake up call. Sexual harassment is a real
issue, and it’s a potentially expensive one if a case
succeeds in court. We all need to watch our own
behaviour and keep an eye on others around us.
But, keep an open mind too! Nice blokes have
been known to cross the line, and sleazebags can
be the innocent victims of a misunderstanding.
Kelly Graham, VPC Harassment Contact Officer"
---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
Luminous 0
Another thing I'll add is being aware who's around while your discussing student performance with another Instructor/JM.
It's very unsettling for a student when a JM walks up to the JM beside him and says someting like "I can't believe what that did! He sucked!". This makes said student wonder what's being said behind his back. And discussing other JM performance while around students is also bad form.
Keep all public JM discussions on a professional level. Sure, there can be some bantering going on but be sure that it's CLEAR that it's bantering.
If you have issues with a student's or JM's performance, take it up with them in private, or talk to the chief instructor.
BSBD
Larry
It's very unsettling for a student when a JM walks up to the JM beside him and says someting like "I can't believe what that
Keep all public JM discussions on a professional level. Sure, there can be some bantering going on but be sure that it's CLEAR that it's bantering.
If you have issues with a student's or JM's performance, take it up with them in private, or talk to the chief instructor.
BSBD
Larry
'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock
apoil 0
Quote
I am looking for suggestions from girls on things that they would have liked to avoid and make the experience more pleasant for the students to be on the DZ and get proper attention.
why do you want suggestions from girls?
why not women? and more importantly, why not men?
is your code of acceptable behavior only limited to inappropriate physical and sexual conduct? Because that's just scratching the surface of professionalism. Why not be more inclusive?
Unacceptable.
never pull low......unless you are