firstime 0 #1 October 30, 2003 Hi All, new in the sport (51 jumps). I have worked on all my weak points by listening to everyone on the dropzone I have corrected all but one. My 32nd jump I made a choice of a downwind on the tarmac or a crosswind on the grass, I chose the crosswind. Well needless to say it was a crash & burn (ego injury only). Now my legs start running 10 feet before the ground. Does anyone have a "little trick of the trade" as to a good way to judge my height prior to the flair. Its got me crazy. I have stopped looking straight down which helped a little. someone suggested velcro my feet together...hehe Any input would be great. Jumping my new sabre2 this weekend for the "gulp" 1st time. oops I mean the 2nd time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 October 30, 2003 Maybe for the last 50 or 100 feet, don't look in any single place. Look down, down and forward, up at the horizon, and off to the sides, and keep doing that with yer head on a swivel. The idea is to get a more accurate feel for where the earth is than staring at it and trying to figure out where X feet is. Of course, I recommend any jump you use my advice on, you PLF. (Even if my advice had to do with your freefall or seatbelt. You can't be too careful if you listen to someone else with even fewer jumps than 51.) -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdgregory 0 #3 October 30, 2003 me too. I keep flaring to high and woops I go down like a rock and PLF so imperfectly I have it down to an artform. We will get it sooner or later. Good luck and Welcome to DZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shmali 0 #4 October 30, 2003 I don't have that many more jumps than you (52) but my instructor told me to kinda visualize the point when you could kick someone in the head and thats when you should start to flare. It's worked for me so far even helped me to stand up a downwinder. Granted it also helps if there are people or other such items around that are of the same height so that you can guage against something. Hope this helps. Pineappe Death Juice, If you have to ask you'd rather not know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Patman 0 #5 October 30, 2003 Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Get it? Practice makes for better excuses!! Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chrisky 2 #6 October 30, 2003 Had a problem with flaring asymmetrically around these 40-50 jumps too. My instructor told me to look at the horizon line and not at the ground. Why? You know instinctively which height above the ground your eyes should be, because that is where they are most of the time... As for the right time to flare, well.... Practice... You will need to work on your timing, meaning to judge the down- and fowardspeed of your canopy. Once you can "feel" how fast it is going, you will know how long it takes to level out in a flare (by having done so at enuff altitude) and just combine that to a nice flared landing... QuoteJumping my new sabre2 this weekend for the "gulp" 1st time. Sounds like you don't feel that safe and comfy with jumping it? Did you jump that canopy (same size and type) before and do you feel that you can handle it in all situations? If not, sell it and get the one you're comfy with.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydivejersey 0 #7 October 30, 2003 The kicking someone in the head is a good one and it seems quick a common mistake in that lots of people flare high when starting. Just try leaving a little bit longer each time until you start your flaring action. Then start a long and progressive movement with the toggles. If you have started your flare too high and realise slow the rate of the pull on the toggles down to reach the full flare on the brakes a bit later. Eventually it will come naturally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #8 October 30, 2003 I agree with Chrisky.... I'm a newbie so Im only quoting from personal experince.... Personally I have not had a problem judging flare height....but when friends have and they have looked at the horizon....it was always much better. Can I just add....before you lokk towards the horizon....spot your landing first...ie...where it is, what/who's around.....and what your landing in !! The only bad landing I can remember was when I landed in a sunflower field and because of the height of the stalks it looked different, I flared a little high...and had a bit of a 'digger'......actually on that one I was looking staright down as I remember... hmmm......go back to the top of this post !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kjarv 0 #9 October 30, 2003 Go find your nearest freindly neighborhood escalator... it gives you a great sight picture. You can also 'mark' on the escalator where 9-12 ft is.... BONUS: Escalator rides are free and you don't have to repack! Please don't PLF from the escalator though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheBachelor 5 #10 October 30, 2003 Different methods work for different people. In my case, unless there's considerable wind, I start to flare when I'm litterally scared that I've waited too long. I stand up 99 percent of my landings. Another thing to remember is you don't have to go immediately from full flight to full brakes. With different situations/wind conditions, a longer, slower flare will work better than a quick one. Again, it's mostly practice. Keep at it.There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites catfishhunter 2 #11 October 30, 2003 I had a problem with flaring until someone told me to use the oh shit system. When you think you want to flare say 'oh shit' 'oh shit' 'oh shit' then flare. Doesn't work if your problem is flaring to low though MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casch 0 #12 October 30, 2003 If there is a good wind going, a nice slooow flare works just fine, but on a no wind day, I wait until the pucker factor is real high, then I blast the brakes and it levels out quickly and puts me into a really small little swoop that I slide out. Granted this is also on a monster 290 Skymaster that I'm loading at near 1:1, and is student gear so the jump #s on it are up there pretty high Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeTJumps 4 #13 October 30, 2003 You have received much input from the forum. Here is my contribution.... When the canopy and the ground are equi-distant from your eyes, initiate your smooth flare action. Push down steadily until either your forward progress stops or your feet make ground contact. GLANCING up and down, not stareing (sp?) up and down is the key. Experience will bring you an awareness of where the horizone should be as you flare. If you have trees nearby, you can judge just how far down the tree's height to flare (12-15'). Enjoy! .Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dogwap 0 #14 October 31, 2003 I am in no sense of the word an instructor, and normally don’t give skydiving advice. But I’ve seen this question a lot lately and have read a lot of advice that is very counter to how I’ve been landing successfully for a long time. First, I like Frog’s advice to keep swiveling your head. Look around. Do not tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is probably the biggest reason people screw up landings. Here’s my advice: Fly your parachute until you land! Forget this flare and wait idea. I think of landing as a two-part maneuver. Part 1- Plane out. By applying a small amount of breaks, your canopy will fly horizontal for a short while. Practice this at altitude until you find the “sweet spot” on your toggles that allows you to stop your descent without significantly reducing your forward speed. See how long you can milk the plane with your breaks before you start to sink. Notice what happens if you add some more breaks or let off the toggles a little. Planing out requires a gentle touch. On my old Saber 135 I slowing apply breaks until the sweet spot (quarter breaks?) is reached. It takes me about a second to reach quarter breaks, so in no-winds I start this maneuver pretty high; 25 feet or more off the deck. Each canopy is deferent so adjust accordingly. Now here’s the important part. After you start to plane out, continue to fly your canopy! If you notice that you’re traveling flat, but still ten feet off the deck, get off the breaks a little. If you’re still going down too fast, apply a little more breaks. These adjustments are VERY SMALL. The point is that you need to keep flying. During the next couple of seconds, your forward speed will start to slow, so to keep your plane going, slowing apply a little more breaks. Part 2- Reduce Forward Speed. At this point, your downward speed should be minimal, but you’re still going too fast forward to run it out. The idea now is to stay off the ground as long as you can while your forward speed slowly bleeds off. Do this by playing the breaks. Finally as your feet are just above the ground and your lift is about to give out, put in another foot of breaks. This will stop your forward speed, at the cost of your remaining lift. Now simply step onto the grass and smile. In general, think about landing your parachute like it’s an airplane. Lift is your friend. Don’t waste it on a big ugly hard flair. Picture a Cessna landing on a runway, not an F-14 slamming into the deck of an aircraft carrier. ------------------------------------------------------- To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you, I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #15 October 31, 2003 alot of people have given good advice here to answer your question. I'll add just a little if you don't mind. Every parachute is going to react differtly in suble ways. It's wing loading, wear, conditions and so on. The key is to get on a parachute and learn it in and out.I hate to sound like a freak, but you have to feel the canopy. Fly it more. fly it often. RELAX! it really helps. you won't find help online, take a course and pay attention.soon you will find that your canopy becomes an extension of you. It's really cool.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #16 October 31, 2003 Thanks Mike, I will use your method combined with a varity of info that I rec'd. I am not too old for this sport but at 46 we dont heal as well as in our 20's therefore thats why I ask alot of questions. I like being well informed and really appreciate that there is no stupid question in this sport... aahhh wait a minute..I have heard a few no brainers but you can dig what Im saying. Looking to do maybe 10 jumps this weekend wiil keep you posted. again thanks again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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shmali 0 #4 October 30, 2003 I don't have that many more jumps than you (52) but my instructor told me to kinda visualize the point when you could kick someone in the head and thats when you should start to flare. It's worked for me so far even helped me to stand up a downwinder. Granted it also helps if there are people or other such items around that are of the same height so that you can guage against something. Hope this helps. Pineappe Death Juice, If you have to ask you'd rather not know! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patman 0 #5 October 30, 2003 Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Jump more in one day. Repeat as needed. Get it? Practice makes for better excuses!! Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 2 #6 October 30, 2003 Had a problem with flaring asymmetrically around these 40-50 jumps too. My instructor told me to look at the horizon line and not at the ground. Why? You know instinctively which height above the ground your eyes should be, because that is where they are most of the time... As for the right time to flare, well.... Practice... You will need to work on your timing, meaning to judge the down- and fowardspeed of your canopy. Once you can "feel" how fast it is going, you will know how long it takes to level out in a flare (by having done so at enuff altitude) and just combine that to a nice flared landing... QuoteJumping my new sabre2 this weekend for the "gulp" 1st time. Sounds like you don't feel that safe and comfy with jumping it? Did you jump that canopy (same size and type) before and do you feel that you can handle it in all situations? If not, sell it and get the one you're comfy with.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #7 October 30, 2003 The kicking someone in the head is a good one and it seems quick a common mistake in that lots of people flare high when starting. Just try leaving a little bit longer each time until you start your flaring action. Then start a long and progressive movement with the toggles. If you have started your flare too high and realise slow the rate of the pull on the toggles down to reach the full flare on the brakes a bit later. Eventually it will come naturally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #8 October 30, 2003 I agree with Chrisky.... I'm a newbie so Im only quoting from personal experince.... Personally I have not had a problem judging flare height....but when friends have and they have looked at the horizon....it was always much better. Can I just add....before you lokk towards the horizon....spot your landing first...ie...where it is, what/who's around.....and what your landing in !! The only bad landing I can remember was when I landed in a sunflower field and because of the height of the stalks it looked different, I flared a little high...and had a bit of a 'digger'......actually on that one I was looking staright down as I remember... hmmm......go back to the top of this post !!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kjarv 0 #9 October 30, 2003 Go find your nearest freindly neighborhood escalator... it gives you a great sight picture. You can also 'mark' on the escalator where 9-12 ft is.... BONUS: Escalator rides are free and you don't have to repack! Please don't PLF from the escalator though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheBachelor 5 #10 October 30, 2003 Different methods work for different people. In my case, unless there's considerable wind, I start to flare when I'm litterally scared that I've waited too long. I stand up 99 percent of my landings. Another thing to remember is you don't have to go immediately from full flight to full brakes. With different situations/wind conditions, a longer, slower flare will work better than a quick one. Again, it's mostly practice. Keep at it.There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #11 October 30, 2003 I had a problem with flaring until someone told me to use the oh shit system. When you think you want to flare say 'oh shit' 'oh shit' 'oh shit' then flare. Doesn't work if your problem is flaring to low though MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casch 0 #12 October 30, 2003 If there is a good wind going, a nice slooow flare works just fine, but on a no wind day, I wait until the pucker factor is real high, then I blast the brakes and it levels out quickly and puts me into a really small little swoop that I slide out. Granted this is also on a monster 290 Skymaster that I'm loading at near 1:1, and is student gear so the jump #s on it are up there pretty high Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeTJumps 4 #13 October 30, 2003 You have received much input from the forum. Here is my contribution.... When the canopy and the ground are equi-distant from your eyes, initiate your smooth flare action. Push down steadily until either your forward progress stops or your feet make ground contact. GLANCING up and down, not stareing (sp?) up and down is the key. Experience will bring you an awareness of where the horizone should be as you flare. If you have trees nearby, you can judge just how far down the tree's height to flare (12-15'). Enjoy! .Mike Turoff Instructor Examiner, USPA Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dogwap 0 #14 October 31, 2003 I am in no sense of the word an instructor, and normally don’t give skydiving advice. But I’ve seen this question a lot lately and have read a lot of advice that is very counter to how I’ve been landing successfully for a long time. First, I like Frog’s advice to keep swiveling your head. Look around. Do not tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is probably the biggest reason people screw up landings. Here’s my advice: Fly your parachute until you land! Forget this flare and wait idea. I think of landing as a two-part maneuver. Part 1- Plane out. By applying a small amount of breaks, your canopy will fly horizontal for a short while. Practice this at altitude until you find the “sweet spot” on your toggles that allows you to stop your descent without significantly reducing your forward speed. See how long you can milk the plane with your breaks before you start to sink. Notice what happens if you add some more breaks or let off the toggles a little. Planing out requires a gentle touch. On my old Saber 135 I slowing apply breaks until the sweet spot (quarter breaks?) is reached. It takes me about a second to reach quarter breaks, so in no-winds I start this maneuver pretty high; 25 feet or more off the deck. Each canopy is deferent so adjust accordingly. Now here’s the important part. After you start to plane out, continue to fly your canopy! If you notice that you’re traveling flat, but still ten feet off the deck, get off the breaks a little. If you’re still going down too fast, apply a little more breaks. These adjustments are VERY SMALL. The point is that you need to keep flying. During the next couple of seconds, your forward speed will start to slow, so to keep your plane going, slowing apply a little more breaks. Part 2- Reduce Forward Speed. At this point, your downward speed should be minimal, but you’re still going too fast forward to run it out. The idea now is to stay off the ground as long as you can while your forward speed slowly bleeds off. Do this by playing the breaks. Finally as your feet are just above the ground and your lift is about to give out, put in another foot of breaks. This will stop your forward speed, at the cost of your remaining lift. Now simply step onto the grass and smile. In general, think about landing your parachute like it’s an airplane. Lift is your friend. Don’t waste it on a big ugly hard flair. Picture a Cessna landing on a runway, not an F-14 slamming into the deck of an aircraft carrier. ------------------------------------------------------- To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you, I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #15 October 31, 2003 alot of people have given good advice here to answer your question. I'll add just a little if you don't mind. Every parachute is going to react differtly in suble ways. It's wing loading, wear, conditions and so on. The key is to get on a parachute and learn it in and out.I hate to sound like a freak, but you have to feel the canopy. Fly it more. fly it often. RELAX! it really helps. you won't find help online, take a course and pay attention.soon you will find that your canopy becomes an extension of you. It's really cool.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #16 October 31, 2003 Thanks Mike, I will use your method combined with a varity of info that I rec'd. I am not too old for this sport but at 46 we dont heal as well as in our 20's therefore thats why I ask alot of questions. I like being well informed and really appreciate that there is no stupid question in this sport... aahhh wait a minute..I have heard a few no brainers but you can dig what Im saying. Looking to do maybe 10 jumps this weekend wiil keep you posted. again thanks again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
