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Tonto 1
I was rated as a USPA AFF I, and am currently rated as a PASA AFF I. I have over 1200 AFF dives. I would never take a L1 with only 1 JM.
t
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Miami 0
QuoteI was rated as a USPA AFF I, and am currently rated as a PASA AFF I. I have over 1200 AFF dives. I would never take a L1 with only 1 JM.
t
Just curious, but why not? Not saying that I would, as I am a USPA rated AFFI jumping at a USPA group member drop zone, and USPA requires 2 I's for AFF 1. However if I were to move and found myself at a non-USPA dz whos student progression mirrored the typical seven level AFF course but only required one I for the first level, I would not have a problem doing it.
Miami
billvon 3,116
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>I would never take a L1 with only 1 JM.
I have ended up taking several level-1's with only 1 JM. I've never taken a completely new jumper on an intentional level-1 with only one JM, but it's happened inadvertantly on occasion:
-Two where the reserve side JM just plain fell off during the count. Once the student's in the door preparing to go I think it's safer to just go with it, rather than risk a tug of war.
-At least a dozen where the reserve side fell off shortly after exit.
-One where I (as reserve side) found myself launched prematurely with the student, as he tripped during a Cessna exit.
All were salvageable. I would have no problems taking a heads-up Level 1 (say, one who had done one tandem, or that I had known for a while) by myself. But given that it's a USPA rule, I'd need a good reason to break that rule before I did it.
I have ended up taking several level-1's with only 1 JM. I've never taken a completely new jumper on an intentional level-1 with only one JM, but it's happened inadvertantly on occasion:
-Two where the reserve side JM just plain fell off during the count. Once the student's in the door preparing to go I think it's safer to just go with it, rather than risk a tug of war.
-At least a dozen where the reserve side fell off shortly after exit.
-One where I (as reserve side) found myself launched prematurely with the student, as he tripped during a Cessna exit.
All were salvageable. I would have no problems taking a heads-up Level 1 (say, one who had done one tandem, or that I had known for a while) by myself. But given that it's a USPA rule, I'd need a good reason to break that rule before I did it.
QuoteI have over 1200 AFF dives. I would never take a L1 with only 1 JM.
***
The student this all started from is NOT an AFF 1, and NOT doing his 1st skydive with 1 JM.
He is going through a TAF progression, and has completed 2 very successful skydives (TAF) jumps before going through the ground school and doing his 1st AFF jump with a single Instructor.
All guidelines of the USPA.
Those AFF Instructors that choose NOT to go up as a single JM all have the choice.
Some will, some won't.
I have done this since USPA implemented the TAF program and have found it to be a VERY successful
program.
Ed
1300+ AFF jumpswww.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteThe student this all started from is NOT an AFF 1, and NOT doing his 1st skydive with 1 JM.
Never thought otherwise, the 1 instructor side discussion got started in response to:
QuoteGuys, thanks for all the info, it's very interesting. So Derek, would you take someone with 1 JM who had NOT done the 3 'working' tandems?
Derek
Tonto 1
Quote
Those AFF Instructors that choose NOT to go up as a single JM all have the choice.
Some will, some won't.
That says it all really, except here in SA, we have no Tandem progression, and BSR's state AFF L1 to L3 will have 2 appropriatly rated AFF Instructors. There are no AFF JM's in SA.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
Tonto 1
QuoteJust curious, but why not?
It's the law. PASA requires 2 Instructors for L1 to L3.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
I keep hearing people discussing "typical" seven-level AFF on the boards. That system went out the window on 1 October 2001. It fascinates me that group member dropzones still pass people out the door and onto the rest of us without taking them clear through to A licensing. No A-card, poorly filled out logbooks, etc. You would not believe the attrocious records that some transient students show up at our DZ with. I accomodate them, but first assist them in getting their records straight and get them their A-cards caught up. Some have never even heard of the ISP or the requirement to complete the A-card. Odd.
Like Bill said, most of us with any salt have been on Cat A or B AFF skydives where one of the Instructors (there are no AFF JM's in the USA either) fell off. That, of course, is no peoblem according to USPA; in fact it's covered under "freefall problems" in Cat A of section 4 in the SIM. I, as a light guy, have found myself the only guy in control on two occasions. Times where the other Instructor got hosed on exit then couldn't get back up to our floaty twosome.
I am a fan of tandem progression/ TAF/ whatever hybrid name you want to call it. I have a best friend, Paul Rafferty, who does a fantastic one-man show in his mercenary skydiving travels. If I owned my own tandem rig I would be right there with him. It's a fantastic tool for dropzones where there is an AFF instructor deficit and it provides a nice one-to-one student to instructor ratio. We don't do it here at Raeford, but I really like the program. One thing that was hinted on before in this thread is for sure though: it only need be conducted by VERY experienced AFF/Tandem instructors.
Just my thoughts.
Chuck
Like Bill said, most of us with any salt have been on Cat A or B AFF skydives where one of the Instructors (there are no AFF JM's in the USA either) fell off. That, of course, is no peoblem according to USPA; in fact it's covered under "freefall problems" in Cat A of section 4 in the SIM. I, as a light guy, have found myself the only guy in control on two occasions. Times where the other Instructor got hosed on exit then couldn't get back up to our floaty twosome.
I am a fan of tandem progression/ TAF/ whatever hybrid name you want to call it. I have a best friend, Paul Rafferty, who does a fantastic one-man show in his mercenary skydiving travels. If I owned my own tandem rig I would be right there with him. It's a fantastic tool for dropzones where there is an AFF instructor deficit and it provides a nice one-to-one student to instructor ratio. We don't do it here at Raeford, but I really like the program. One thing that was hinted on before in this thread is for sure though: it only need be conducted by VERY experienced AFF/Tandem instructors.
Just my thoughts.
Chuck
Tonto 1
I'm with you there. PASA has it's "ISP" running. (Intermediate skills program here) which keeps the student with an instructor or coach until A licence, now 25 jumps as per FAI req's as of 30 September.
Tandem progression is too expensive to be viable in SA. A somewhat better (but still poor) exchange rate with the $, and having to use (and maintain) foreign gear is the primary reason, so we're still doing conventional "double instructor" L1 to L3. Looks like PASA is trying to "mirror" USPA. With the volumes and experience available in the US - there seems little point in re-inventing the wheel - but we do lag in some aspects, such as AFF with ripcord as opposed to BOC throwout. I'd like to relocate the ripcord position to BOC - but this would compromise the SL Practice pull, with the container having gone slack by the time the student reaches for it.
I know of exits that have gone pear shaped and spat off an instructor, but have yet to participate on one. I'm sure my time is coming. The slow speed on the Porter helps out a lot here, I think, but the vast majority of my AFF is still out of Cessna front door and rear door exits.
t
Tandem progression is too expensive to be viable in SA. A somewhat better (but still poor) exchange rate with the $, and having to use (and maintain) foreign gear is the primary reason, so we're still doing conventional "double instructor" L1 to L3. Looks like PASA is trying to "mirror" USPA. With the volumes and experience available in the US - there seems little point in re-inventing the wheel - but we do lag in some aspects, such as AFF with ripcord as opposed to BOC throwout. I'd like to relocate the ripcord position to BOC - but this would compromise the SL Practice pull, with the container having gone slack by the time the student reaches for it.
I know of exits that have gone pear shaped and spat off an instructor, but have yet to participate on one. I'm sure my time is coming. The slow speed on the Porter helps out a lot here, I think, but the vast majority of my AFF is still out of Cessna front door and rear door exits.
t
It's the year of the Pig.
I've never actually done an AFF L-1 solo but I can tell you that it is pretty standard that if an AFF exit goes unstable and ballistic, at some point one jump master will release and the other one usually the main side instructor will stabilize the student. Since AFF L-1s are harness hold exits and skydives until the pilot chute is deployed I think I would feel comfortable on the main side as a single JM with most people. However, the down side to that is that if the L-1 has never had the experience of freefall and jumping out of a plane, you do not necessarily have ANY idea of what you are in for with the student. We usually go to single JMs after L-3 when a student can demonstrate the abiliy to fall stable and controlled. Hope that helps.
Also edited to add: Also, as a L-1 JM, I know that there is no way I am letting go of that student. From the main side if I don't let go and things ever get too hairy, I know I can always just dump a student out if the student was getting uncontrollable. I've had students attempt to take me on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and Evaluators too as a single JM and been able to recover fine but I have heard stories and seen things that I have also NOT experienced in AFF. You aren't allowed to dump your evaluators out too soon, but in real life, I give a student lots of chances and time to redeem themselves and if it turns out they are trying to kill me or them intentionally or not, I have no quams with saying its been nice jumping with you, see you on the ground DUMP.
Also edited to add: Also, as a L-1 JM, I know that there is no way I am letting go of that student. From the main side if I don't let go and things ever get too hairy, I know I can always just dump a student out if the student was getting uncontrollable. I've had students attempt to take me on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and Evaluators too as a single JM and been able to recover fine but I have heard stories and seen things that I have also NOT experienced in AFF. You aren't allowed to dump your evaluators out too soon, but in real life, I give a student lots of chances and time to redeem themselves and if it turns out they are trying to kill me or them intentionally or not, I have no quams with saying its been nice jumping with you, see you on the ground DUMP.
Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."
Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."
Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."
Well, you know, after reading everyone else's posts to this thread maybe I would sway more towards thinking twice about doing a solo JM L-1. I thought it was funny this thread popped up because I was just thinking the other day about taking my Dad skydiving and if I trained him and took him out solo what would that be like?
Don't know, don't know if its a good idea or a bad one. Definitely not a solo on his L-1 but for some reason I have the confidence in him that if I trained him he would do just fine. So I just want to clear up any possible misconceptions from my earlier post. I'm really not some crazy JM that would take anyone on a L-1 solo. But I would have to say that there have been quite a few jumps AFF L-1 when I have been on the reserve side or not and the Reserve JM was literally dead weight and just along for the ride. I can say with confidence that I certainly would not take a person who is a lot heavier than me. My Dad is like 5'11", 170 pounds. I think he and I would be alright, but I guess you just never know. Jumpmastering with a first time student is like pulling the slot machine handle in Vegas. You just never know what you are gonna get! It is nice to know that you're Reserve partner is there to help stabilize an unruly student when you do need them.
Blue skies
Don't know, don't know if its a good idea or a bad one. Definitely not a solo on his L-1 but for some reason I have the confidence in him that if I trained him he would do just fine. So I just want to clear up any possible misconceptions from my earlier post. I'm really not some crazy JM that would take anyone on a L-1 solo. But I would have to say that there have been quite a few jumps AFF L-1 when I have been on the reserve side or not and the Reserve JM was literally dead weight and just along for the ride. I can say with confidence that I certainly would not take a person who is a lot heavier than me. My Dad is like 5'11", 170 pounds. I think he and I would be alright, but I guess you just never know. Jumpmastering with a first time student is like pulling the slot machine handle in Vegas. You just never know what you are gonna get! It is nice to know that you're Reserve partner is there to help stabilize an unruly student when you do need them.
Blue skies
Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."
Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."
Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."
I was responding to a question on what I considered a students AFF 1. Hence the statment "I'm considering Level 1 as the students first AFF dive,"...
I see that I could have worded it "I consider" but the implication was unintentional. I assumed that if there was any question a simple look at my profile would show I'm no AFF student.
I think you read into, or I incorrectly relayed, that statement.
Blue skies
Ian
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