AFF JM's

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey Folks,

I got a question for all you AFF JM's out there. How common is it to use 1 JM for AFF level 1? I don't have any instructional ratings so I have no idea if this is more common than not. Typically I notice that 2 JM's are used, but I do know of instances where there is only 1.

Can anyone enlighten me?

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kai2k1 0]

Im not a JM, but I am a student. At my DZ if you go through the tandem progression (3 tandems then the FJC) then you jump with on JM. If you go straight AFF 2 JM's are used till level 4. Hope this helps

There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan

[Hooknswoop 19]

The USPA requirement to have only 1 JM is the student must demonstrate pulling on time, stable. I know there was talk of clarifing this or stating a minum number of jumps before the student can jump with 1 JM.

This is only a USPA requirement and acording to the FAR's, you can make your first jump without a JM.

Derek

[rjf98 0]

From the 2004 SIM BSR section.
"(1) All students must jump with two USPA AFF rating holders until demonstrating the ability to reliably deploy in the belly-to-earth orientation at the correct altitude without assistance."

Now what are you considering a level I? Don't be confused, I know of a DZ or two that do crossover training, and students think they are doing a level I AFF skydive when they are really a cat D student doing a level IV.

Someone will inevitably tell you that if you are at a non USPA DZ then it doesn't matter. I think you aren't technically doing a "USPA AFF" jump then either, you're simply doing that DZs student progression. Nothing illegal about it at all, they just don't follow USPA's recomendations or programs.

[ianmdrennan 2]

I'm considering Level 1 as the students first AFF dive, with a maximum of only 1 tandem "fun jump" done prior (i.e not tandem progression).

So, my next question is....what are the safety implications of this?

Thanks for the info.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[billvon 3,116]

>So, my next question is....what are the safety implications of this?

We've had several students manage to kick off one JM (either the main or reserve side) but only one has managed to kick off both, by getting into a flat spin on his back. So the downside is that a jumper may be better able to abandon his JM's and end up solo on his first jump. On the plus side, it's harder to fling one JM off if there is only one JM to begin with.

[jlmiracle 7]

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I'm considering Level 1 as the students first AFF dive, with a maximum of only 1 tandem "fun jump" done prior (i.e not tandem progression).

So, my next question is....what are the safety implications of this?

Thanks for the info.

Blue skies
Ian

I am and AFF Instructor and I would NOT do an AFF level 1 with only 1 JM. I personally do not think it is in the best interest of the student for safety reasons. The best ground student can be your worst nightmare in the sky.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I have done a lot off AFF/AFP level ones as a solo Instructor. The student had done 3 'working' tandems prior to their first AFF/AFP. I found it easier than standard AFF level 1's. The main side JM doesn't help on exit, only makes it worse. I have been rolled on 2-JM AFF dives, but never on solo JM level 1 AFP dives.

Derek

[ianmdrennan 2]

Guys, thanks for all the info, it's very interesting. So Derek, would you take someone with 1 JM who had NOT done the 3 'working' tandems?

I appreciate the info.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bodypilot1 0]

The TAF progression requires 2 tandems befor e completeing the FJC and going onto a single Instructor AFF jump. The 1st TAF tandem requires the student being able to do 3 practice ripcord deployments after exiting, read the altimeter correctly and "unassisted" pull at the required altitude.
The 2nd TAF tandem is 3 PRCD's, the same as the 1st, but with 180 degree turns and good body position, and a pull at the required altitude.
The TAF2 also has all the canopy control done by the student on this jump. It's great 1 on 1 training.
The judgement of the Tandem Instructor on whether he feels the student is capable of continueing on to the FJC and a single AFF Instruction jump is purely up to them.
This program has been a great progression/tool for the student that wants 1 on 1 in air training before putting on a solo rig on his back and going up with 2 Instructors for his 1st freefall.
I hope this answers any question you may have?
If not feel free to contact me.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So Derek, would you take someone with 1 JM who had NOT done the 3 'working' tandems?

I wouldn't take just anyone, but most people, yes. That being said, the student is better off having done 2-3 tandems first. They have less fear of the unknowns, less anxiety, understand how to fly the canopy, and are better equipped to handle the skydive.

Derek

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yep - thanks everyone. Just found this unusual, but it seems that it's a perfectly acceptable way of doing the progression.

Live and learn
Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[jlmiracle 7]

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I have done a lot off AFF/AFP level ones as a solo Instructor. The student had done 3 'working' tandems prior to their first AFF/AFP. I found it easier than standard AFF level 1's. The main side JM doesn't help on exit, only makes it worse. I have been rolled on 2-JM AFF dives, but never on solo JM level 1 AFP dives.

Derek

If the other JM is a problem they should have let go immediately. The problem I've seen with the Tandem progress is legs out even with 1 tandem there is the legs out problem but Andy (an instructor at our dz) has built us a very very cool horizonal trainer, which may help. We don't do Tandem progression. I personally would not feel comfortable taking a student (any student) out for there FIRST AFF jump with just 1 JM.

Depending on which airplane we are jumping from depends on who is going to have more control of the student on exit, whether it be main or reserve.

I have no experience with the tandem progression system of teaching skydiving. I find that if they have done more than 1 tandem it takes longer to get their legs off their azz. These are the experiences I have had.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I find that if they have done more than 1 tandem it takes longer to get their legs off their azz.

The trick is to teach them the correct body position from the get-go. I cringe when I hear a TM tell their passenger to "put your feet on my ass".

Derek

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I would not consider taking anyone out on a Cat A AFF that I had not taken into the tunnel first. Even then, that's outside the boundaries of USPA, so I would not do it in public.

That said, we don't do tandem progression here either. What I do though, on occasion, is take people "on the fence" on Cat A tandems. People who, in my opinion, didn't need to be sitting through a seven hour FJC just to make one skydive in the first place. If they accomplish all the Cat A tasks on that tandem and liked it, then I take them straight to Cat B after sitting through the FJC. I have quite a high retention rate doing things this way. The good thing is that the student hasn't wasted a single cent in doing it this way. In fact they actually save five dollars doing it that way in the long run.

Chuck

[Shark 0]

We do a similar program here, for those "on the fence" or when the winds become too great for the student who wants to get the jump in. In this case they have already gone through the FJC and the next jump is a Cat B jump at a lower price.

[bodypilot1 0]

The problem I've seen with the Tandem progress is legs out even with 1 tandem there is the legs out problem

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One of the things I teach during the TAF progression is the same hand signals you'd give during a AFF jump. As the TAF Instructor you have to REALY pay attention to "overall" body position on the jump, as to whether you think they can proceed to the next level.
As an Instructor that can give personal training to my students, I have the choice to let them proceed to the next level. But sometimes you cant always work with the same student through all his progression.
Some DZ's have thier students go with the 1st available instructor they have. The problem I have found with this is, sometimes the instructor they get put with is a guy with 500 or so jumps and just recieved his Tandem Rating. I think at times this instructor has no business teaching a TAF and trying to evaluate if the student is capable of going on to the FJC and AFF with a single Instructor just for the reason you said, "Legs on thier butt", thus causing most of the skydive trying to get them from not back sliding.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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[rjf98 0]

OK:
Took a look at your profile. Obviously you're not a student asking questions. Is there something you are observing that isn't safe, have you talked to your S&TA and brought it up?

I'll say generally that after one tandem jump it would not appear that the BSRs and or the ISP is/are being followed if what you say is the case.

I'll also say that there was a time when AFF / Harness hold was done with 1 JM with somone who had never jumped out of an airplane.

[bodypilot1 0]

I think he may be fishing.....?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=722813#722813

from what was on this page.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=725782;guest=3076304#725782

I had the same question......

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[juanesky 0]

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I think he may be fishing.....?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=722813#722813

from what was on this page.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=725782;guest=3076304#725782

I had the same question......

Ed

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

Quote

I think he may be fishing.....?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=722813#722813

from what was on this page.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=725782;guest=3076304#725782

I had the same question......

Ed

Huh?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[lummy 4]

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Huh?

he made your links clickable

easier for us to follow by just clicking on the link as opposed to cuttting and pasting the url

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[bodypilot1 0]

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Quote

Huh?

he made your links clickable

easier for us to follow by just clicking on the link as opposed to cuttting and pasting the url

Cool.
Thanks Gary

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[ianmdrennan 2]

not fishing - just enquiring. I have had previous experience with this type of thing ONCE a few years ago. At the time I had no idea on AFF standards (I came from a static line dropzone), but it was later brought to my attention that this was not the norm. When the original posted spoke of A JM (singular), I thought I'd get a general concensus, seeing as I am not an AFF instructor and go to a DZ that uses 2 JM's.

Thats all. If you aren't doing anything wrong and have nothing to hide, I couldn't be fishing for anything...right?

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bodypilot1 0]

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If you aren't doing anything wrong and have nothing to hide, I couldn't be fishing for anything...right?

***
I train my private students under USPA guide lines even though I instruct them at a non USPA group member dropzone.
And your absolutely right. I have nothing to hide.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

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