what should you do if a 2 out side by side goes to a downplane on final?

[Newbie 0]

just cut it away and hope the pendulum effect will have swung out by the time you touch down? I'm talking low to the ground, like the last 50ft or less on approach.

Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mr2mk1g 10]

yes... and PLF. What else you gonna do... ride it in?

[JeffD 0]

Shouldent have happend in the first place. Two out => talk to your instructor what you should do and look for before you cutaway your main. and then just ride your reserve. Many very skilled pilots can't land a two out safely.

[jerry81 10]

Try to break as few bones as possible...and I'm not entirely kidding. If your canopies downplane at 50ft or less, chances are you'll hit the ground before you peel the cutaway pillow off. Personally, I'd chop the main at a safe altitude (i.e. before turning on final). Also, after seeing this incident up close, I'll make sure I check for the reserve if I ever pull really low on an AAD equiped rig.

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[Newbie 0]

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Shouldent have happend in the first place. Two out => talk to your instructor what you should do and look for before you cutaway your main. and then just ride your reserve. Many very skilled pilots can't land a two out safely.

lots of things shouldnt happen in the first place, but they do as we all know, i'm trying to understand what would be a good way to live and escape with minimum injury if i or anyone is in this situation. I know to cutaway a side by side when it starts to downplane, but i was just wondering what was the worst case scenario in this pretty unlikely although not unprobably situation - would the resulting pendulum movement of cutting away a main thats starting to downplane at sub 50ft be worse than riding that last few feet down as it progresses to downplane?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[samhussey 0]

Look in the Mag, theres a really good article about 2 outs, I think it was in the august issue. It might even be on the site www.skydivemag.com

[Newbie 0]

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Look in the Mag, theres a really good article about 2 outs, I think it was in the august issue. It might even be on the site www.skydivemag.com

yeah but it doesn't say anything other than "if a side by side progresses to a downplane cutaway at a suitable altitude"

This doesn't really answer the question of how to handle the situation if you get a freak downplane situation really low

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

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yes... and PLF. What else you gonna do... ride it in?

Perhaps - my line of thinking was if this happened super low, should you cutaway as the resulting energy created by the cutaway and the pendulum effect maybe greater than the force of the start of a downplane? I need to know, maybe i should cross post to CReW?

Where's Kallend when you need him?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I think what JeffD is suggesting is that if you have a 2 out biplane, by all means try and land it.
If it is a side by side, you should chop it before you get anywhere near finals.
eg from the recent article in the mag..
"Flying a Side-by-side
Gently and carefully steer the dominant (usually the Bigger) canopy. Leave the brakes of the smaller canopy stowed. If the side-by-side develops into a biplane, fly it as recommended to the left. If the side-by-side does not develop into a biplane, cutaway. REMEMBER: first disconnect the RSL! Only cutaway if there is no entanglement. In the case of smaller or elliptical canopies a cutaway is generally recommended. "

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[stuart 0]

Quite agree, shouldn't be allowed to happen that low in the first place - but these things can happen.

One for the CReW people I guess: any quick advice on what you should be looking for\doing with regard to minimising the risk of entanglement from your departing main before chopping a two-out (RSL off)?

[mr2mk1g 10]

As soon as you cutaway from the downplane your reserve will begin to plane out from a completely vertical trajectory to a horizontal one.

Vertical = bad, horizontal = good.

The closer to getting that one remaining canopy back to horizontal you can get, the better. I know what you are thinking about the pendulum effect but that force has to be less than the force involved with a downplane.

If you are that low, you are looking at a crash landing probably no matter what. Therefore you are aiming for a crash landing with the least impact force attainable.

Imagine it again. You are heading towards the ground under a downplane. Straight down. Your not just falling, your canopies are propelling you. As soon as you cutaway your direction will start to change, back to horizontal... even if it only has a couple of seconds to change there will still be a change. That change will be away from the vertical, and it the vertical energy that will kill you.

I say cut away from a downplane as soon as it develops, no matter how close to the ground it develops.

[JeffD 0]

Sorry I only read newbie. hehe.

But think about this.

1) are you in a downplane at 50'

If this were it I'd say you would have seen this coming and cutway with enough time to plane out.

or

2) is the downplane just starting at 50'

You would be able to tell the Downplane is starting and cutaway immediatly. without too much alti lost from the Downplane.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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what should you do if a 2 out side by side goes to a downplane on final? just cut it away and hope the pendulum effect will have swung out by the time you touch down? I'm talking low to the ground, like the last 50ft or less on approach.

I don't think there is a 'right' answer. We can discuss prevention (don't get into that situation), but that wasn't the question. If you have a side by side that you have decided to land in that configuration, you are taking the chance of the canopies down planing at a low altitude. At some point, there is nothing you can do (Q: what do I do if I find myself in freefall at 100 feet? A: Enjoy the groundrush).

You can either cutaway or attempt to bring the downplane back to a side by side (or better yet, attempt to stop the downplane as they seperate). Either way you are probably going to get seriously injured. The smaller the canopies, the more it's gonna hurt. I you hoping for an answer along the lines of "Do this and you will walk away", I don't think you'll get one. At some point you are out of ideas and altitude and you might as well enjoy the groundrush.

Derek

[nightjumps 1]

While I haven't had the luxury of having a two-out situation, I have seen a low two-out which caused me to think about handling it and developing my own alititude algorithm.

If greater than 250' - disconnect the RSL, force the downplane by using the opposing rear riser of the main to "pull" the main away from the reserve and cut it away.

Any other thoughts on this?

[Newbie 0]

yeah i thought thats something you might be able to do, although forcing a downplane isn't something i've heard anyone advising.

How would you force it in a side by side? If the main was on the right, grab right rear riser of main and left rear riser of reserve and pull down lightly to put them into opposing turns etc?

Would that work?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Any other thoughts on this?"

Yeah, the British mag just did an article on this situation....
http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/pages/articles/aug03/canopiesout.html

Bear in mind that a downplane will propel you towards the ground at around 70 ft/sec. Whatever you do, you'd better do it quick.......Or sit back and enjoy the rush, as Derek suggested..

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[nightjumps 1]

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How would you force it in a side by side? If the main was on the right, grab right rear riser of main and left rear riser of reserve and pull down lightly to put them into opposing turns etc?

All you would really need to do is, "...grab right rear riser of main and pull down." Once you get the canopies to separate where the canopies have about 5-8 feet of separation is cut the main.

[nightjumps 1]

Most excellent. Thank you. As the article states.... the best scenario is to prevent a two-out situtation.

[Newbie 0]

word thanks Derek, i was looking for a more of a "this is the lesser of the 2 evils" rather than, this is the right way to get out of this.

Oh yeah and with regards to this:

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(or better yet, attempt to stop the downplane as they seperate

how do you try to stop one when it's starting to form?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[mr2mk1g 10]

Hold the risers together.

[Scrumpot 1]

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Imagine it again. You are heading towards the ground under a downplane. Straight down. Your not just falling, your canopies are propelling you.

Maybe this is "picky", and anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but... Your canopies will "propel" you?? How can they do that?? They have neither propellers nor motors. Even if you have 2 canopies flying in tandem (on you) in a downplane configuration, doesn't it stand to reason that your max attainable vertical speed is still "only" going to attain that of terminal? Granted, that's fast enough (and clearly not survivable) ...But are you saying that your speeds are actually ENHANCED because of the down-plane and that your vertical speed really "accellerates" (beyond that it would be otherwise with no canopies out at all)? That does, to me, seem to be hard to imagine. In a true vertical decent (remember, the otherwise "forward speed" of your canopy is not generated via any method of propulsion), I would think that the material of the canopies, along with the mass of your body (and lines etc. etc. ....the entire surface area in other words) is still going to instead offer some coefficient of DRAG.

Enlighten me as to where propulsion otherwise would come from? Seriously, ...I'm no physicist, and I would just like to better envision this, if appropriate, as you suggest.

THANKS!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[samhussey 0]

I think what was meant is that you would accelerate towards the ground. You are right though, canopies dont propel you, gravity does.

[mr2mk1g 10]

no your right... screw up on my part.

the max speed would be whatever the terminal velocity of your body and both canopies is. This will be a lot less than your body on its own.

What I was trying to say is that [I think... please correct me someone if im wrong] your acceleration to begin with will be greater (I mean over the first second or two which is the relevant time scale in the situation proposed).

Your canopies have a forward speed of 15mph... you've now directed that at the ground and that speed is gonna pick up quickly. This is faster over the first second than the speed of your body falling from a stationary position (eg cuttaway from good canopy). The speed your body would reach in free fall would quickly exceed that speed but it would take more than the 1-2 seconds to reach that speed, by which time in this scenario you have alread impacted

[Hooknswoop 19]

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(or better yet, attempt to stop the downplane as they seperate

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how do you try to stop one when it's starting to form?

Well at that point you would probably be flying a side-by-side, hopefully with the brakes set on both canopies, using the rear risers of the main to make small corrections, preferably towards the reserve. To prevent the downplane, fly the main towards the reserve, using rear riser input. Probably going to be a very hard landing, but survivable.

I didn't mean to suggest you should ever give up, I have gotten out of some very tight situations, even after thinking "So this is how I am going to die". Just that at some point things are not salvagable to the point of being able to walk away.

Derek

[winsor 236]

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just cut it away and hope the pendulum effect will have swung out by the time you touch down? I'm talking low to the ground, like the last 50ft or less on approach.

Thanks

Go toward the light.