bigfritz 0 #1 October 8, 2003 Right now I'm jumping a 135 Triathlon and my landings are tippy-toe in every time. I was wondering if there is any way to make it so I come in a little faster and maybe do a mini swoop or something. I only have 26 jumps so I'm not trying to do anything too etreme, but just a little extra boost maybe. Here's a pic of my landing now: http://www.outersph3re.com/skydiving/freefly_10_06_03/14.jpg I'm in a bit of a leaned back position when I land, too. Does that mean I'm flairing too high? ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #2 October 8, 2003 23 jumps on a 135? Learn to swoop on a bigger canopy dude (don't tell me you're light so it's ok). Trust me, it'll pay off in the long run. Both in longevity in the sport and your ability to pull off monster swoops. To answer your question though, the first thing in learning to swoop is understanding your wing. Practise up high doing front riser turns, HARD flares (i.e pretend you're saving yourself), rear riser turns, rear riser flaring, etc. Take a canopy course, there are more and more available. I highly recommend Scott Millers course, but there are others out there too if you'd prefer them. Remember it takes TIME and YEARS in the sport. This isn't something that happens overnight so be patient and careful. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beavdog 0 #3 October 8, 2003 The leaned back position that you are in is due to the amount and speed of your flare. For instance, if you hammer the toggles down your canopy will produce tons of lift in a short period of time. This will be accompanied by a rapid deceleration of your canopy. Due to the physics of this motion, your body will have more momentum than your canopy and your body will swing out in front as is illustrated by your picture. This happens to all to some degree, but is lessened as one learns to fly the canopy completely through the landings. Here's to the Breezes that blows through the Trezzez..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #4 October 8, 2003 just out of curiosity, what's your wingloading on that 135? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigfritz 0 #5 October 8, 2003 Should I flair slower to I get more of a glide coming down, rather than a complete stop and touch down? I weight 130 and I'm guessing about another 20 with gear. So That's about 1:1.1 wingloading I think. ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #6 October 8, 2003 Hmmm. Well, I started jumping at 1.1:1 when I had 10 jumps (after being at 1:1 for the three previous). That being the case, I really can't and won't be saying much about your wingloading/canopy choice other than to point out that a 1.1 on a 135 is quite a bit different (read: a lot more to handle) than 1.1 on a 210 (what I was flying). I am sure others will fill ya in on the details. There's a thread in the incidents forum about a fellow low-time Lodi jumper which you might find interesting or enlightening. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 October 8, 2003 QuoteThere's a thread in the incidents forum about a fellow low-time Lodi jumper which you might find interesting or enlightening. ClickyPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #8 October 8, 2003 The canopy class with Scott Miller is great. I just took it this past Sunday. Cool pic. :) I don't know how you flare, but if you plane out by flaring to the 'sweet spot', then bleed a little speed off, when you slow down you'll still have the extra flare to plop you down nice n soft when your speed runs out. I haven't jumped a 135 canopy yet, but i'm sure it's the same idea. I just started, too. I am just becoming more comfortable with the idea planing out a little lower, rather than 5 feet up. Hopefully I can transfer this to actual practice soon:) Not that I would try it yet, but to go faster I think you can make a front riser dive on final and let it up and plane out the same way you normally would. I really don't know, tho, and, like I said, i'm not willing to try this down low yet, you can always ask one of the cool canopy guys:) Although, with your jump #s, they probably won't be too keen on giving you swoop advice, haha. Just wanted to chime in about the class, it really is a good class if you can take it, it's worth it:) Really gives you the knowledge to better yourself through actual practice. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #9 October 8, 2003 QuoteAlthough, with your jump #s, they probably won't be too keen on giving you swoop advice, haha. Not true. Learning to swoop starts with a lot more than a low turn. Problem is that a lot of people don't want to learn the basics. They just want the turn low to the ground, and that is one of the LAST parts of learning to swoop. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigfritz 0 #10 October 8, 2003 QuoteThere's a thread in the incidents forum about a fellow low-time Lodi jumper which you might find interesting or enlightening. I was at Lodi on Monday and I heard about it... So sad... Where is Scott Miller's class located? I'm in northern cali. ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #11 October 8, 2003 QuoteWhere is Scott Miller's class located? I'm in northern cali. He's in FL. But being in CA, you've got to think that you can find good canopy instruction somewhere there. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #12 October 8, 2003 You can contact Scott at scott@freedomofflight.tv or +(386) 738 - 3539 He travels around to various dropzones so ask when he'll be in your area or when the next course in Deland is. You could also try and contact Team Extreme or Wyat Drews in Elsinore as they both have classes as far as I know. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #13 October 8, 2003 I was gonna add the following to my previous post, but thought better of it. Now that you mention it, I'll say it: QuoteI started doing hp landings when I had about 35 or 40 jumps AFTER taking a course with Scott Miller and doing extensive work with a pro-circuit swooper and AFF-I. Scott brought me up to speed on where I needed to be to start. My other instructor picked up where he left off with babysteps and lots of feedback on each step. I followed that up with a HP canopy control course at about 60 jumps. I do know that learning hp landings is better on a bigger canopy, because no matter what, you still have a big canopy above your head (or much closer to being above your head) than a smaller one. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #14 October 8, 2003 Wyat is awesome! I took a lot from a couple of his seminars. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 October 8, 2003 I would advise you to work on perfecting what you've got now, before trying to add any speed. From the photo it appears you've created a large pendulum effect which is swinging your body way out in front of the canopy. This is most probably caused by a "stabbing" of the toggles. You are using all of the flair (lift) the canopy has available in one quick and somewhat less efficient motion. On a more heavily loaded canopy this may quickly result in a stall before you have bleed off sufficient speed for an acceptable landing. Without using drawings, or models it is hard describe what you should be working on, but a more ideal landing will come from using enough toggle quickly at the beginning of the landing sequence to swing you body forward just enough to plane the canopy level with the ground, and then more slowly use the remaining toggle stroke to keep the canopy in that configuration till you speed bleeds off to near zero. The results from the technique are more noticeable with both higher loadings, and higher aspect ratios (i.e. 9 cell canopy) but can and should be practiced and refined at your current loadings. It will make future downsizing, and canopy changes a pleasant experience, rather than a bruising one! Safe landings brother!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigfritz 0 #16 October 8, 2003 So will going through my 3 step flair a little slower and leaning forward a bit will help make my landing better? ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #17 October 9, 2003 QuoteSo will going through my 3 step flair a little slower and leaning forward a bit will help make my landing better? leaning forword isnt going to make any changes in your landing exept for where your looking.... QuoteWithout using drawings, or models it is hard describe what you should be working on, but a more ideal landing will come from using enough toggle quickly at the beginning of the landing sequence to swing you body forward just enough to plane the canopy level with the ground, and then more slowly use the remaining toggle stroke to keep the canopy in that configuration till you speed bleeds off to near zero. this is 100% correct. you built the speed in that landing but flared too much too late wich swung your body out front. at least that is what it looks like.... that speed that has your body swung forward can be used to "surf" the canopy. if flared correctly. try flaring lightly to create forward motion with the canopy and aqs you start to sink a little pull more toggle down to keep you body at the same height it is at when you planed it out... then slowly do more and then a little more with the toggles, untill there is just about none left then put your feet down.. also once you get a few more jumps "you can start this high right now" "at altitude" pull the front risers down a little and let the canopy dive and then slowly let them up and then transition into you toggle flare, plane out canopy then slowly flare more to keep your body at the same altitude. its good to see you have a curiosity about swooping. and when peaple tell you to learn to swoop a larger canopy and it will benifit you in the lon run "they are telling you correctly" and i suggest you do just that.. but i dont think what your jumping is out of your leuge. "but ive never seen you land" but just take it easy and learn.. it takes time... before you know it you will be giving advice.. also keep asking questions it is a good way to learn. dont close your mind to input and you should always get somone elses opinion.. later mark edit to add: what he means by swinging your body forward is... well think about a grandfather clock.. you know the pendulum? well your body is the pendulum under the parachute. use that energy to "surf" the canopy. not swing your body out in front of it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigfritz 0 #18 October 9, 2003 Ah, I see... So should I start my whole flair sooner, or should I hold the 2nd step of my flair at the chest longer to create that forward glide motion and then pull down from there to the waste as needed to keep my feet off the ground until I touch down? ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #19 October 9, 2003 If you're having to stab the toggles then you need to start the flare sooner. Think less of a staged flare and remember the goal is to use as little input to keep your canopy level as possible (i.e. bring it to the "sweet spot" and go accordingly from there). The more you slow down the more input you need to give until you have no more speed left to generate life and the canopy puts you on your feet. A common mistake to make is putting feet down prematurely. Remember, just because you CAN run out the landing, doesn't mean you NEED to. Keep flying that wing until it won't give you anymore lift. Make sense? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #20 October 9, 2003 QuoteAh, I see... So should I start my whole flair sooner, or should I hold the 2nd step of my flair at the chest longer to create that forward glide motion and then pull down from there to the waste as needed to keep my feet off the ground until I touch down? it isnt really weather you should start earlier or not.. but looking at that pick it looks like that is what you need to do...it is more a judgment you make with experiance.. you not going to get it right away.. so dont kick youself...it isnt satges.... but you could think of it that way.. it is more of a fluid motion.. non stop flare.. "just slowly" but it is a judgment you make when you "feel" your body sinking then you "flare a little more" when you feel your just about out of lift then put your feet down..."note: if you canopy falls behind you when you stop .. that means you put your feet down too late and "stalled the canopy" if it falls in front of you.. then you were still flying thae canopy..." you want it to fall in front of you....use the pendulum effect to tranition to horizontal and bleed off speed with lift... do not use the pendulum effect to swing you body out in front... edit: like a car comming to a stop light.... you dont lock up the brakes and skid to a stop hoping you going to stop in time..... yet you gradually applly the brake pressure slightly then slightly more then just a bit more... till your compleatly stopped Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigfritz 0 #21 October 9, 2003 I think I've got it! Thanks for the help! ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #22 October 9, 2003 QuoteI think I've got it! Thanks for the help! just be carefull/... and i suggest you take some of these things and talk to one of the instructors at your dz before you try any of this.... since they have seen your landings and maybee be better able to explain it in person Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #23 October 9, 2003 100% agreed. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #24 October 9, 2003 Quotelike a car comming to a stop light.... you dont lock up the brakes and skid to a stop hoping you going to stop in time..... yet you gradually applly the brake pressure slightly then slightly more then just a bit more... till your compleatly stopped That's one of the best analogies I've ever read when it comes to flaring. Now if only I could do it like that every time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aero04 0 #25 October 9, 2003 I'm sorry for getting off topic here, but in the attached pic, what happened to your shoe?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
