7 cell flaring

[firediver 0]

Any advice on consistent flares for my Triathlon (a 7 cell canopy) ? Seems like on windy days I stand it up no sweat...on the occasional light air days....not so much....

Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary!

[mcrocker 0]

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Any advice on consistent flares for my Triathlon (a 7 cell canopy) ? Seems like on windy days I stand it up no sweat...on the occasional light air days....not so much....

Let me guess. On no wind days you start your flare and pop up then crash and burn... If so, slow down and smooth out your flare. Start it a bit higher and feel the canopy plane out as you slowly pull down on the toggles.

Practice, practice, practice.

[quade 4]

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Seems like on windy days I stand it up no sweat...on the occasional light air days....not so much....

If you gave the same smoothness and application of inputs, the canopy would behave the same way. It certainly has no idea whatsoever if the wind is blowing or not.

What I think is probably really happening is that on a no-wind day you're doing things just a bit differently because you perceive the ground is rushing under your feet and perhaps you're also not matching that speed with your feet. Complete your flair as you normally would and run it out.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[firediver 0]

yeah, it's probably the greater penetration without the wind being there that is throwing me off...and pissing me off currently..gonna wear the ass out on the suit at this rate

Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary!

[Vertifly 0]

Flaring, hooking, swooping, etc., etc.

It's all about timing, timing, timing.

A decent head wind provides a larger margin of error with regard to timing the flare.

Canopy time provides the experience to dial in the moment of stabbing the breaks. A good rule of thumb is about 5-seconds before spanking.

[quade 4]

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Flaring, hooking, swooping, etc., etc.

It's all about timing, timing, timing.

That and smoothness and appropriateness of application.

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A decent head wind provides a larger margin of error with regard to timing the flare.

Only in so much as the forward speed over the ground is different, so forces along that direction are lessened. Rates of decent -should- remain approximately the same in wind or no wind. The canopy certainly doesn't know any difference.

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Canopy time provides the experience to dial in the moment of stabbing the breaks. A good rule of thumb is about 5-seconds before spanking.

I don't believe -anyone- should ever allow themselves to be in the position to where they have to stab the brakes.

Please see http://futurecam.com/stalls.html

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Some of your no-wind landing issues may also be related to your canopy choice. A 7-cell such as yours comes in steeper than a 9-cell and your may just not feel as comfortable coming in faster (ground speedwise) at the steeper angle. My first canopy was a Triathlon and it did it's job well for what I asked out of it. But I like the 9-cell canopy more than the 7-cell because of the flatter glide angles.

Just my 2 cents ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

After learning on a Spectre 7 Cell which is not too different from the Triathlon (except that the canopy fabric of the Triathlon if I remember right is a hybrid vs. ZP in the Spectre). I remember that sometimes I would have to remember to tell myself before landing to be aggressive with the flare and to make sure my flare had equal toggle input on both sides. I had a friend who would consistently land her Spectre by unevenly applying more toggle pressure to one side more than the other.

Then when she would drift to the right, collapsing that side of her canopy more she would always reach to brace herself for the fall like we all instinctively do but this caused her to dive her canopy into the ground more. Eventually one day, she very badly broke her leg and it was a very bad break. It took her a long time to recover from it and it was a pretty nasty injury.

With any canopy, you have to love it like your child but also let it know who is boss. For the most part they are meant to open so once they're open it is usually up to what input the pilot gives it.

On no wind days you are coming in faster and losing altitude quicker. You have less air pressure inflating your canopy coming into land. It usually requires a little higher start to your flare and a little more aggressive toggle input to finish out the flare on a seven cell. I don't know what your wing-loading is, I am speaking from my own experience which was an approximate 1:1 wingloading.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[quade 4]

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On no wind days you are coming in faster and losing altitude quicker. You have less air pressure inflating your canopy coming into land.

No. I'm sorry, but that is simply wrong and there is no aerodynamic basis whatsoever for those statements.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

OK, then does it have to do with the way the canopy cuts through the air? I know from experience that the windier it is, the less drive I get therefore less forward speed. As for losing altitude, maybe you're right about that one. Maybe you don't really lose altitude quicker???

I could be out on a limb, this one is making me think too hard after 4 midterms the last two weeks that ended today. But isn't it glide ratio/slope yada yada yada for every 3 feet forward you descent one foot or something???? I could be way off here ...

Any canopy physicists in the house? Where is the Professor?

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[quade 4]

I'll probably have some time on my hands on Monday to write it up.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jimbo 0]

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I know from experience that the windier it is, the less drive I get therefore less forward speed.

You're correct, less drive equals less forward speed. But your canopy doesn't care about forward speed, only about air speed.

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As for losing altitude, maybe you're right about that one. Maybe you don't really lose altitude quicker???

I suspect that people think they lose altitude quicker on a windy day because they're not covering as much ground under canopy. The 'normal' picture for people is to cover 100 feet across the ground and lose 30 feet in altitude. On a windy day you'll cover 50 feet across the ground, but still lose 30 feet in altitude. I believe that this provides the illusion of faster than normal altitude loss. Make sense?


-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[lummy 4]

While you're at it, could you also include what the effects of air temperature and altitude has (or does not have) on the flight of a canopy?

I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Hey Lummy,

I think I have the temperature/altitude thing licked although someone could probably add to the little bit I know about it. I think in higher temps especially depending on humidity and "thickness" of the air, when a gas is warmer the molecules are spread farther apart. So on warmer days air molecules are further apart so the density of the air is less meaning less air resistance.

Altitude is similar, the higher you go the less dense the air = less resistance.

In both cases, less air resistance = less collisions of air molecules with canopy fabric = less frictional force opposing downward force of you + canopy + gravity. At higher altitudes you will lose altitude more quickly under canopy in a turn.

Unfortunately lost a friend due to rapid loss of altitude in a turn on a jump made from a higher altitude and less dense air than he was used to

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Jim that makes sense but I was one of those people who would vote that you would lose more altitude on a no wind day on landing due to less air resistance (wind) in your canopy. But maybe that statement is incorrect since your canopy stays inflated whether there is wind or not. So never mind, I am apparently just confusing myself . Maybe Quade will fill us in on Monday. (taking notes) As for the rest of you, you will all be quizzed on this later

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[sundevil777 102]

Your canopy will fly with the same airspeed no matter what the winds are doing (steady winds). Your descent will also not be affected. It may appear to be faster or slower, but it is not.

Your groundspeed will be different. With less groundspeed it is easier to land.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skybytch 273]

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Some of your no-wind landing issues may also be related to your canopy choice.

I can land my Spectre just fine in no wind, 5 mph wind, 10 mph wind, etc. I know lots of other people who can do the same. If you can't land your canopy in no wind you're flying something too small for your current ability. It has nothing to do with the number of cells.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Any advice on consistent flares for my Triathlon (a 7 cell canopy) ? Seems like on windy days I stand it up no sweat...on the occasional light air days....not so much....

1. Get video and have some one who understands landings look at it.

2. Assuming you do everything the same, you'll have more forward speed on a no-wind day. If you aren't finishing your flare this may be enough to make you stumble.

3. The increased forward speed and shallower glide angle with no wind will change your perception so you probably aren't doing things the same.

[gremlin 0]

I've got a spectre and it took me a few jumps to figure out the best way to land it. When there is ni wind I start the flare slightly higher and progressively flare further than on windy days where the lower forward speed means I don't have to flare as much to stop.
Best advice though, get videod for several landings and get a decent coach to look at them.

I'm drunk, you're drunk, lets go back to mine....

[rhino 0]

Try and so a small s-turn an 50 feet or so.. Tri's come in real nice with about 110% energy..

[Jimbo 0]

You know what Rob? It's not, at least in my opinion, a good idea to tell newbies to do toggle turns at 50 feet to build up extra speed for landing. That's just me though, others may disagree. Yo, newbie, don't do that.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Kris 0]

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You know what Rob? It's not, at least in my opinion, a good idea to tell newbies to do toggle turns at 50 feet to build up extra speed for landing. That's just me though, others may disagree. Yo, newbie, don't do that.

Absolutely agreed.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[sssbc99 0]

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Seems like on windy days I stand it up no sweat...on the occasional light air days....not so much....

If you gave the same smoothness and application of inputs, the canopy would behave the same way. It certainly has no idea whatsoever if the wind is blowing or not.

What I think is probably really happening is that on a no-wind day you're doing things just a bit differently because you perceive the ground is rushing under your feet and perhaps you're also not matching that speed with your feet. Complete your flair as you normally would and run it out.

Not to get off topic but weren't you the one that wrote a thread about the misuse of words?

Edit: Nope, it wasn't you.

[quade 4]

You are right though.

My bad.

Flair is, among other things, a natural talent.
Flare is, among other things, a shape.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vdschoor 0]

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Any advice on consistent flares for my Triathlon (a 7 cell canopy) ? Seems like on windy days I stand it up no sweat...on the occasional light air days....not so much....

I jump a Triathlon as well at a very windy dropzone (Byron, CA) so I am used to flaring at a certain point. A couple of weeks ago I went to another dropzone and had hardly any wind, you just have to adjust the altitude to flare at a little bit to make your no wind landings work as well. It's a bit harder, the first landing I almost had to run faster than my legs allowed me to.. but then the next jump you flare a little higher.

Just my 2 cts.

Iwan