downsize or not?

[siujumper 0]

My friend has jumped a hornet 170 (he weighs about 200 out the door) for about 150 jumps (he has about 210 jumps in roughly 3 years), has rarely, if ever, played with the risors at all. The few attempts he made he ended up with some scrapes on his hands and knees. He wants a little more responsiveness out of his canopy and recently purcharsed a vengeance 150. We had a buddy kill himself on the same canopy and don't want to see it happen again so a few of us have questioned his motives pretty thouroughly to try and ensure that he will be safe with this canopy. Is this an appropriate step for him to take? Since he probably won't get rid of it is there anything we can tell him to make sure that his progression goes smooth and he doesn't make a fatal mistake?

blue skies

[Jimbo 0]

Ask him to tell my grandmother that I miss her.
-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[skybytch 273]

He does about 70 jumps a year, doesn't use risers at all and now has a Vengeance he loads at 1.3?

Send him to a canopy control school with his Hornet.

[Rainbo 0]

Well that is almost a loaded question on this forum. To be honest, 210 jumps in three years indicates to me there he is not real active or suffers from long seasonal layoffs. In my opinion, I have to say he is starting to push it. There is another thread that has generated a lot of discussion about canopy size and performance envelops for jumpers. In the end tell your buddy that taking a real canopy control class from experienced canopy pilots is his best bet. hopefully there is one scheduled in your area somewhere, if not maybe it's time for him to take a trip to get the right info and some training.

Hopefully he will listen, if not hopefully he will use some common sense and expriment with the canopy in a step by step progression.

If both of those scenarios are unlikely with this individual then perhaps as friends you should begin the process of accepting that he will buggar himself up to one extent or another.

BSBD,
Rainbo

Rainbo
TheSpeedTriple - Speed is everything
"Blessed are those who can give without remembering, and take without forgetting."

[billvon 3,108]

Get him to learn to fly his Hornet FIRST. That means flat turns down low, flare turns, front riser manuevers, crosswind landings, rear riser landings etc. Once he can fly the Hornet well he'll be more ready for the Vengeance.

>He wants a little more responsiveness out of his canopy . . .

Tell him that he can get a lot of performance out of the Hornet if he learns to fly it, but will not get much more performance out of a Vengeance if he is afraid of it (since he never learned to fly the larger canopy.)

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

The few attempts he made he ended up with some scrapes on his hands and knees.

Smaller canopy could very well change the sentence to the following:

The few attempts he made he ended up with some bones sticking out of his hands and knees.

OR

He was a nice guy, we're going to miss him.

To quote Ron, it's the same old story. You and those that care at the DZ have a chance to help change the cycle.

I hope you guys help him do the right thing.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

My friend has jumped a hornet 170 (he weighs about 200 out the door) for about 150 jumps (he has about 210 jumps in roughly 3 years), has rarely, if ever, played with the risors at all. The few attempts he made he ended up with some scrapes on his hands and knees. He wants a little more responsiveness out of his canopy and recently purcharsed a vengeance 150. We had a buddy kill himself on the same canopy and don't want to see it happen again so a few of us have questioned his motives pretty thouroughly to try and ensure that he will be safe with this canopy. Is this an appropriate step for him to take? Since he probably won't get rid of it is there anything we can tell him to make sure that his progression goes smooth and he doesn't make a fatal mistake?

blue skies

hmm.... does he have a birthday coming up...or early holiday gift?? maybe you and your buddies could get together and buy him a gift certificate to take a canopy class... that way he'd have no excuases. and you could always take the class with him.. might be fun.

[12bhi 0]

The way I see it:If you have to ask if you should downsize,its more than likely not a good idea

[skytash 0]

Before I even read your post (which I now have of course) I knew what my answer to the question would - not.

It's like the question 'do I love him/her?' If you are not 100% sure your answer is yes, then it is no.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[Shivon 0]

Sounds like a bad idea to me.

[Ron 10]

If you are not trolling....Which could happen here.

I would let him read about all the dead folks that thought they could handle a downsize....Hell, there was just one last week.

It seems clear that he does not know how to fly his big canopy if he can't use his front risers without screwing up.....What do risers do? They increase the landing speed...What does downsizing do? Same damn thing.

So now he wants to go to a canopy that he has shown he can't handle the speed of?

Makes no damn sense to me.

Sounds like another person who is letting ego, not skill pick his canopy....The problem is that is often fatal, or atleast hurts a lot.

Search this site, and print out the fatalites....of course he will not read them...none of them think it could happen to them.

A canopy control course is a good idea....A canopy control course on his old canopy is a better idea.

If he will not listen, ask him to:

1. make sure his will is up to date.
2. make sure he has medical coverage.
3. He should tell his family that he loves them.
4. Make him write a note saying that he knows that this canopy is advanced, and that he chooses it of his own free will. And that he holds no one resposable for his choice but himself.
5. Have him place this in his reserve pocket "When I hook this thing in please rinse off the blood, and then send it to Ron Hill c/o Skydive City Zhills Fl." (I can always use more gear).

Then try praying.

Im kinda sick of hearing the sound of bodies hitting under good canopies.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sducoach 0]

Higher wing loading equates to more speed. If your friend is unable to fly his Hornet completely through all flight configurations as Bill stated. Tell him NO. Why be shy with a friend?

Learn to fly your canopy completley, then if you want to do it faster, down size.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[Kolla 0]

Any chance he would consider going up a size - to a Vengeance 170 or Stiletto 170 or something comparable?

If not, please ask him to be very careful - the Vengeance has a quite steep dive and is a canopy made for more experienced canopy pilots than he appears to be.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/education.asp - click on "Vengeance" for it's flight characteristics.

Blue ones,
Kolla

Blue Skies Magazine

[skybytch 273]

btw, does the dzo and/or S&TA at your home dz know his experience and what he's planning to fly? If not, get him/her involved in this.

They can refuse to let him jump it at their dz. Won't help if he decides to go elsewhere (unless of course they call around and inform other dz's of what's going on). But it would keep the incident from happening at your home dz.

[jumperconway 0]

Kolla,
I can see the 170 vengence but wouldn't the stilletto virtually be a latteral move? And I agree that he should learn to fly the hornet before changing anything!

[towerrat 0]

gee Ron, that canopy is a little large for you, do you want to sell it?
In all seriousness, if your friend won't listen, there won't be a whole lot you can do about it but express your concern.The S@TA on the other hand can ground his ass, and that's where I would go if I was that concerned.
----------------------------------------------------

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[mfrese 0]

Oh God, here we go again...assuming, as Ron said, this isn't simply trolling.

My recommendations would be:

1) Take the Hornet 170 to a canopy school and learn to fly it in all flight modes.

2) DEMO a Vengeance 170 (assuming they are actually similar wingloadings, I'm not familiar with PISA's measurement methods) so you can learn the new canopy at a similar wingloading.

3) If you feel the Hornet 170 AND the Vengeance 170 are still too tame for your newly mastered canopy skills, DEMO a Vengeance 150 and see what you think.

Prior to all this, your DZO and S&TA should make sure this guy is given some guidance about his relative lack of currency and experience, and his poor choice of canopies for his skill level. If necessary, ground him until he sees the light. Maybe it'll help prevent the rest of you taking part in an ash dive load like we will this weekend...

Iceman

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[weekendwonder 0]

Same song, second verse....

If he hasn't mastered all aspects of flying the larger Hornet, why would he want to downsize and up the wingload? Will it be more responsive? Sure, but he doesn't appear to be able to handle the more responsive aspects ("played with risers") of his Hornet as it is.

He should stick with the larger canopy until he can comfortably (and confidently) fly it in all aspects first before going to the Vengence. My 2 cents...

Blues...

Bob P

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[Ron 10]

The Hornet is more like a Sabre 2 than like a Stiletto.

A good canopy, but if this person can't really fly it he really should not get a Vengence OR a Stiletto...He should learn to fly it first.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumperconway 0]

I think I said that. But thanks Ron for clarifying the canopy comparison.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

Is he unhappy with the responsiveness, or with the speed? I recently took a canopy course with Scott Miller and discussed this very thing. He suggests that if someone is unhappy with the responsiveness, there are different canopy choices at the same wing loading without having to downsize, which means greater speed. i.e. Kolla's suggestion that he try the Stiletto 170 or the like. He should most definitely take a canopy control class and talk to the instructor about what aspects he is happy/unhappy with. It's also a really good thing to take the class to gain knowledge. I plan to take it again in 50 jumps, it really isn't all that expensive for what you get out of it.

Good luck to him:)
Angela.

[AndyMan 7]

When a friend of mine informed me of her desire to downsize two size, and go from a square to a fully eliptical canopy, I took it upon myself to convince her such a drastic move was not wise. Over a period of weeks she did eventually change her plans.

Giving good canopy advice is not somthing that happens in a 5 minute conversation, it is an active fluid discussion over a longer period of time.

I have, do, and will nag people for weeks until they see WHY I don't think they're making a wise choice. I'd recomend the same.

Younger jumpers seem to value my opinions, and for this I'm fortunate. I attribute this to my attempts to explain the logic that forms those opinion, rather then simply stating them factually.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[jumpgod 0]

generally have learned to take the conservative stance on canopies.

1) wingloading and jumpers getting hurt due to canopies they are not ready for is a 'trend' item with skydiving ever since these tiny canopies were released -- now everyone's in this daring hurry to land.

2) i've asked this same question with jumpers repeatedly and the consensus seems to be, if you can't fly your currently canopy nearly perfectly (kind of like a diver doing a 1 and a half triple twisting summersault perfect 10.0) keep your current chute and stay alive.

3) don't turn low

"dude, where's my main?"

[Ron 10]

Quote

2) i've asked this same question with jumpers repeatedly and the consensus seems to be, if you can't fly your currently canopy nearly perfectly (kind of like a diver doing a 1 and a half triple twisting summersault perfect 10.0) keep your current chute and stay alive

everyone here knows I am one of the biggest "canopy Nazi's" out there...

However I would not say perfectly fly that canopy. I can't perfectly fly my ST107 and I have 2,000 jumps on it.

You do need to have the basics damn near perfect, but not the whole canopy.

This is why I like the "get your PRO test" If a guy can land a canopy 10 times out of 10 attempts standing in a 30 foot circle...He knows enough about that canopy..If not, I think its clear he still has more to learn.

But in this case he does not handle the speed well, so why downsize?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

There are some folks who won't listen to the all the best advice on the planet. Some even get downright nasty about anyone trying to be helpful. What can you do if you've tried to offer guidance and it isn't well received? Just light a candle and burn incense for them...

One of my jm's once said that sometimes a license is a license to be stupid if you so choose. Sorry about your friend.

*****************
Attitude is everything!