sunsetjim 0 #1 October 22, 2003 Hey All - I'm going to ask this question to death when i get back to the dz - but i would like all of your opinions as well. As far as I know - there are a couple of golden rules about tracking: 1) don't track up the line of flight (ie into the next group out the door) 2) turn 180' from your position and track away from your group before pulling (or at least as reasonably as you can so you get away from your group) my question is this - let's say it's a four way - and if everyone turns 180 and tracks away - one guy north, one south, one east, one west (pure perfect hypothectical) - one person is bound to be tracking up the line of flight. do you all, and should i - track slightly closer to another member of the group if your 180 turn will take you up the line of flight? which safety precaution takes precedence in this instance? jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #2 October 22, 2003 Quotedo you all, and should i - track slightly closer to another member of the group if your 180 turn will take you up the line of flight? which safety precaution takes precedence in this instance? No. If proper horizontal separation is given and breakoff isn't too high, this isn't a problem. The golden rule is to turn 180 and track. Do it. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #3 October 22, 2003 As far as i know (and i'd do the same), it's safer to track a little closer to another member, than up the line of flight. If you track like you should, than it really isn't a problem tracking some degrees closer to another member. How about 8-way, they are separated 45 degrees at most. and we all know, that it's never so. It's more like 5 track on one side 3 on the other. So it's 35 degrees between each other... Get my point But i'm no expert at tracking it's just my thought."George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #4 October 22, 2003 Quote No. If proper horizontal separation is given and breakoff isn't too high, this isn't a problem. The golden rule is to turn 180 and track. Do it. He's correct here. If you think about it, when you are doing 4-way, are you paying attention to where the line of flight is in relation to your 4-way group, which is probably rotating at least a little? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,108 #5 October 22, 2003 >turn 180' from your position and track away from your group before pulling >(or at least as reasonably as you can so you get away from your group) Definitely do this >1) don't track up the line of flight (ie into the next group out the door) Not really an issue on 4-ways. That's why you leave more separation between groups - so you have the space to track up and down line of flight to get separation from the other jumpers in your group. If you end up too close to another group, the answer is to increase exit separation, not decrease separation from your own group. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #6 October 22, 2003 Turn 180 and track. Unless you are a) breaking off very high b) are an exceptional tracker (not damn good) c) There is insufficient seperation between groups exiting the aircraft d) another exceptional tracker is tracking down line of flight, You will have no problem. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingfrog 0 #7 October 22, 2003 generally I agree with the comments above, but... and u know there is always a but all is depending of the size of he group.... e.g. if you are planing to have a huge track dive you should consider to break off in different stages and never turn more than 90 degrees, because you can race into your friends which are possibly behind you And this has to be briefed in details before the jump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #8 October 22, 2003 QuoteHey All - I'm going to ask this question to death when i get back to the dz - but i would like all of your opinions as well. As far as I know - there are a couple of golden rules about tracking: 1) don't track up the line of flight (ie into the next group out the door) 2) turn 180' from your position and track away from your group before pulling (or at least as reasonably as you can so you get away from your group) my question is this - let's say it's a four way - and if everyone turns 180 and tracks away - one guy north, one south, one east, one west (pure perfect hypothectical) - one person is bound to be tracking up the line of flight. do you all, and should i - track slightly closer to another member of the group if your 180 turn will take you up the line of flight? which safety precaution takes precedence in this instance? Forgive me for being pedantic, but it is my nature. The 180 degree turn is only useful if you're facing the center of the formation before tracking. If you're doing a doughnut, a 90 degree turn will work just fine. The basic idea is to track directly away from the center of the formation. I keep an eye on the people on either side of me by looking under my arms; if I have to look ahead at all I'm not tracking hard enough, and if I have to look up I'm not flat-tracking. The way to stay clear of other groups is not to avoid the line of flight, but to work out a good basis of separation between groups before exit. If I'm being followed by an RW group, usually there is someone I can trust who will assure me that he will give a solid count of X (say 6 or 8, depending on the winds and group size) before exit. By and large, the level of cooperation you can expect from other jumpers is substantial. When you hear complaints about someone who just doesn't play well with others, it is the exception, rather than the rule. As an aside, you should not do a tracking DIVE up or down the line of flight, since you can pass over or under another formation before breakoff altitude. So the rules of tracking I observe are: 1) Break the formation at an altitude appropriate for the formation size and type (significantly higher for free flying). 2) Aggressively FLAT track directly away from the center of the formation, splitting the difference between the distance to the people on either side. 3) Open at an appropriate altitude. I know of more than one case where people came to grief by taking it low to get clear of someone tracking too close to them. If they're too close, open at an altitude where it's okay to do CRW. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #9 October 22, 2003 Quote 2) Aggressively FLAT track directly away from the center of the formation, splitting the difference between the distance to the people on either side. Well, I don't know, but it seems to me that there are a whole lot of people out there that don't/won't flat track. I've been on a whole bunch of big-ways in the last year, from coast to coast, and on every one I've seen people (experienced skydivers even) diving steeply away instead of flat tracking. These people are a hazard, the organizers never seem to do anything about it, yet every organizer pays lip-service to safety.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #10 October 22, 2003 Well, I don't know, but it seems to me that there are a whole lot of people out there that don't/won't flat track. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because few people really know how to flat track. Lots of them extend their arms and legs, but few remember the "reverse arch" part of tracking. Maybe they need to listen to Tom Pfeiffer or Craig Girard talk about "shaping" a max track from a slow fall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #11 October 22, 2003 QuoteQuote 2) Aggressively FLAT track directly away from the center of the formation, splitting the difference between the distance to the people on either side. Well, I don't know, but it seems to me that there are a whole lot of people out there that don't/won't flat track. I've been on a whole bunch of big-ways in the last year, from coast to coast, and on every one I've seen people (experienced skydivers even) diving steeply away instead of flat tracking. These people are a hazard, the organizers never seem to do anything about it, yet every organizer pays lip-service to safety. Yeah, I have been stunned upon occasion to watch BIG NAMES in the sport doing a sinking delta below me. It's not quite as bad as doing a standup out of the formation, but sinking out during the track certainly has some of the drawbacks. I'd rather be above people than below them from the standpoint of avoidance, but my first preference is to have everyone on the same level. A good flat track has many things to recommend it, chief among them is the maximum separation between breakoff and opening altitudes. If everyone is on the same plane, you only have to scan one dimension (the line of the horizon) to find everyone - the principle behind a fixed pattern altitude. When people have fall rates that diverge greatly after breakoff, it takes much more work to spot everyone, since they can be anywhere in the picture (where's Waldo?). It's fun to jump with people with fantastic freefall skills, but I prefer to jump with people with fantastic lifesaving skills. The Golden Knights come to mind as jumpers with brilliant freefall skills, superb safety procedures, and they're the nicest people you'd ever want to meet - proof that you can have it all (at least they can...). Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 October 22, 2003 Quotemy question is this - let's say it's a four way - and if everyone turns 180 and tracks away - one guy north, one south, one east, one west (pure perfect hypothectical) - one person is bound to be tracking up the line of flight. You raise an excellent point about potential danger. If proper seperation is given between groups upon exit, then the short distances covered while tracking for breakoff don't create a conflict. Normally... Exception: if you have a big way breaking off higher than usual, first out. For example, let's say you have a 16-way that is breaking off at 5,000', followed by a 4-way group. It is possible that the long track executed by the big-way divers from 5,000', could end up in the territory of the following 4-way. This happens! When in such a set-up, the group following the big-way high-breakoff group should allow an extra time interval before following them out. And that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be stuck with a long spot either, because, as in this example, there are only 2 groups on the plane. So, you have nothing to lose, and safety to gain. John Rich Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunsetjim 0 #13 October 23, 2003 in response to: " . . . when you are doing 4-way, are you paying attention to where the line of flight is in relation to your 4-way group . . . " in a general sense - i.e. don't track directly away from the river, or directly towards the river - but i'm much more specifically concerned with (and more upfront in my mind) tracking the hell away from the rest of my group before deploying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunsetjim 0 #14 October 23, 2003 in response to: " . . . By and large, the level of cooperation you can expect from other jumpers is substantial. When you hear complaints about someone who just doesn't play well with others, it is the exception, rather than the rule. . . " very true - occasionaly i've heard "this guy was such a jerk, he flew right through our skydive" - but never do you hear "wow, it was great, the group after us waited long enough to allow adequate separation and didn't get in our way". and hallelujah for that. glad the rule is the rule and not the exception. in response to your general post - and just about everyone else's post - my new understanding of tracking is this: A) it's not a golden rule "turn 180 and track" (i had already figured this out) - turn an appropriate distance to track an equal distance and angle away from the people on either side of you B) breakoff at an appropriate altitude C) worry more about "line of flight" when in the plane -i.e. discussing separation time between the previous group, your group, and the next group - than during your track. if you worry beforehand, you won't have to worry during your track. D) never do a tracking dive up or down the line of flight E) flat track, not dive track (I haven't had video of my track yet, but i aggresively question those i jump with as to the speed and flatness of my track - because i want my track to be fast and flat) Thanks to everyone for your help and your responses. Blue Skies. Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #15 October 23, 2003 Quotemy new understanding of tracking is this... That is an excellent summary of the points made in this thread. I'm glad to see you are paying attention. You will go far, little grasshopper... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
