State Records

[Nullified 0]

Just curious what people think.

When setting a state record, do you think that there should be any minimum percentage of locals participating in the attempt?

And I understand that a lot of people who jump at DZs aren't necessarily residents of that state, so please elaborate on what definition of "Locals" you believe to be appropriate.

Thanks and stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Nullified 0]

Probably should've stated this in my original post;

My idea of local means that you either live in, or jump at a DZ within that state frequently.

I voted 75%, though I nearly voted 100%.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[FrogNog 1]

I support a 0% locals requirement because I think groups who suck should have the option of traveling a long way to find a state that hasn't yet set a big record.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Nullified 0]

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I support a 0% locals requirement because I think groups who suck should have the option of traveling a long way to find a state that hasn't yet set a big record.

Guess what, make them meet a locals requirement and most of those big records will go away.

Then, depending upon where you live and skydive, you can suck and still set the record...at least for a year or so

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[sdctlc 0]

I think one of the great things about skydiving is traveling around and meeting new and catching up with old friends for some fun jumps. A big way attempt, state record or not, is not only a fun weekend but a great excuse to go and travel.

Should there be a number of locals on the dive, if possible yes. The higher the % the better. There hopefully will be a good % of locals since the more that are present the more interest that will be generated in other jumpers from the area. You also may get some additional jumpers including some of the lower jump number locals interested in learnig what to do to be involved with the next bigway jump. Separate from the jump everybody wants to partcipate in the inevitable shamless pointing of them selves out on the picture that shows up on the wall...

I am guilty of the traveling bug myself. I went through a spurt of East coast travel to go on State record attempts a number of years ago. I think the Va state record is still standing from West point at a 87-way or so. Good luck in two weeks to Guy Wright and the Attempts to go to a 100-way, wish I could have been there....It just would have changed the local % though but hey, I grew up in VA and went to college there, would that have counted??
Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[flyangel2 2]

I guess then I wouldn't get to travel and enjoy myself getting together with old friends and making new if they wanted requirements on state records. I'm one of those that does a lot of traveling and love being on state records, even thought I'm not from that state.
The bottom line is that you're going for a record. So you ask the best to be on the dives. Just because you aren't from that DZ or state is no reason to not be on the record. I have only once ran into a problem at a state record attempt where a local gave me a hard time about not being from that state and being on the record. I think the person was mad because he got cut and I didn't.
Think about the Olympics, are the best sent to represent our country? Same with the state records get the best in there and set a new record.
BTW, sometimes a State Record is set when there are other events happening. Take for example the JFTC event. During that time frame, the women also set a Calif. State Record.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kallend 2,146]

Since these are not in any way "official" records, define them how you like.

Biggest formation ever completed in a state.
Biggest formation completed by residents of a state.
Biggest formation completed by blue-eyed redheads in a state.
etc.

Then just set them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jceman 1]

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Since these are not in any way "official" records, define them how you like.

Biggest formation ever completed in a state.
Biggest formation completed by residents of a state.
Biggest formation completed by blue-eyed redheads in a state.
etc.

Then just set them.

Amen.

It's fun to have these records. I think each is special it its own way.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[jumperconway 0]

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Since these are not in any way "official" records, define them how you like.

Biggest formation ever completed in a state.
Biggest formation completed by residents of a state.
Biggest formation completed by blue-eyed redheads in a state.
You forgot;
Biggest formation by blonde muffed babes in a state! (Verification required.) and yes I'm the judge

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[quade 4]

What if it's a location where no drop zone exists, other than for the purposes of setting the record?

For instance . . . I'm specifiically thinking about the Nevada State Record Boogie.

We take some Twin Otters from Perris out to Laughlin, Nevada, set up a temporary drop zone and set a record. Locals are not only welcome, but encouraged to join in the fun, but the attempt brings in a LOT of jumpers from Perris. Fun stuff where usually nothing exists!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Nullified 0]

In the event of a state which has no DZ, I guess he who brings the DZ makes the call!

I understand the feelings regarding enjoying traveling and jumping with buddies, and I'm not suggesting that you / we shouldn't be able to do that. That's why I didn't vote for 100%.

My thinking is, a state record should represent local talent.

Somebody mentioned The Olympics, and I'm wondering how many people representing each country were not citizens of the country that they were representing?

Before I start being seen as a requirement nazi (!)
I really want to be clear that I'm not suggesting a 100% requirement. Just that a State record should feature local talent.

I mean, you could conceivebly get the same group of people traveling from state to state snatching up every state record.

Somebody mentioned that these state records aren't actually official. Is this true? If that's the case, then I don't really see the need for any minimum requirement.

If something is to be official though, then I would really like to think that the majority of the participants are locals.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[rjf98 0]

I'm with you nullified. I think state records should feature local talent and I would support a %75 requirement for them.
I didn't know they weren't "official". If there aren't official records... then why are some listed as official and some as unnoficial in parachutist???

[kallend 2,146]

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I'm with you nullified. I think state records should feature local talent and I would support a %75 requirement for them.
I didn't know they weren't "official". If there aren't official records... then why are some listed as official and some as unnoficial in parachutist???

Q. What "official" body in the state of California ratifies California skydiving records?

A. There isn't one.

That's why these records are unofficial, and have no set rules about who may participate etc.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nullified 0]

***Q. What "official" body in the state of California ratifies California skydiving records?

A. There isn't one.

That's why these records are unofficial, and have no set rules about who may participate etc.

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Wouldn't it be as simple as having a USPA representative present to verify that the predeclared goal was attained?
I'm asking, not challenging.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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[flyangel2 2]

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My thinking is, a state record should represent local talent.

In my traveling experience if the DZ or state has the talent, then most times they are on the jumps. The major problem that I have seen it the past, is when a local doesn't have the talent, and they are mad cause they aren't on the jumps. The organizers don't care where you are from, they just care if they get the record. People pay lots of money for travel and jumps to make a record happen. Just because someone is from that state and again, doesn't have the talent, doesn't mean they should be on the attempts.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[rjf98 0]

Easy killer
I thought that perhaps USPA held the official records for these jumps. I also don't think Nullified is trying to say that big way camps shouldn't be held all over the place. Just that in order for a big way to be counted as a state record some precentage of the people on it should have to be residents.

How about it big way organizers... are you up to one more challenge in putting together your big ways? How do you hide the "not as much talent having" locals to get that state big way record?

[Nullified 0]

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My thinking is, a state record should represent local talent.

In my traveling experience if the DZ or state has the talent, then most times they are on the jumps. The major problem that I have seen it the past, is when a local doesn't have the talent, and they are mad cause they aren't on the jumps. The organizers don't care where you are from, they just care if they get the record. People pay lots of money for travel and jumps to make a record happen. Just because someone is from that state and again, doesn't have the talent, doesn't mean they should be on the attempts.

I agree. If somebody doesn't have the talent, they shouldn't be on the jump.

Thing is, if breaking records is the goal, shouldn't those who have the talent be allowed?

Look at the new Alabama CRW record. A 9-stack.
I don't know the particulars of who came from where, but if this is a mostly local talent record, I think it's much more admirable than if Chris Gay were to take his buddies down there and build a quadraplane diamond and claim a 16-way record.

Why? Because he and his buddies have already proved that they can do it.

I bet several of the participants in the 9-stack record wouldn't have been able to participate in the record had it been a much larger formation, organized by somebody who is just interested in snatching up records.

By doing that, you are eliminating local people who otherwise could've participate in 'their' state record.

As the local talent grows, so will the state record.

To me, that's what a state record is all about.

I'm completely impressed by the people who are setting the records, don't think I'm not. I appreciate the talent and the planning and work that goes in to them, and yes I love watching it all come together no matter who's involved.

But look at from a slightly different perspective than what you pointed out earlier. You enjoy traveling and jumping with your buddies and breaking new ground.
What about the locals who may be able to participate in a 40-way state record, but don't have the talent to participate in a 100-way state record, where 60 of the participants are visitors? They're being excluded not because they don't represent some of the top talent locally, but because they don't represent top talent on a national level, which is where the participants are being pooled from.

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[flyangel2 2]

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How about it big way organizers... are you up to one more challenge in putting together your big ways? How do you hide the "not as much talent having" locals to get that state big way record?

Not to sound like a jump snob, but if that were the case with the next state record attempt that I was attending, I don't think I'd go and waste my money. If the person has the talent, and they are from that state, put them on.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[rjf98 0]

I think I don't undestand you appeal to big way events. Is it really the chance to hold "some kind of record" after it's all said and done? Or do you genuinly like jumping big ways and traveling to do it?

I understand not wanting to travel and spend your money on an attempt that won't complete. What I don't understand is this need to be a part of a record in a state that you don't really claim as your own.

Now if a big way jumper were all that talented, they wouldn't be just waiting for the next record they could break easily, wouldn't they want to be part of a national, or world record attempt? Those are ground breaking.

My sentiments are still with Nullified. Some small state with limited jump season (I don't know... let's just say New Hampshire) puts together a 60 way. It's got 50% local talent. To me much more impressive than a group of big way enthusiast that go to the location and put together a 150 way. If they put the 150 way together great! That's really cool. But what's the difference of doing it in New Hampshire or Arizona or anywhere else for that matter?

My real question is this. What's the draw flyangel2? Nabbing some record that could easily be broken by a large group of experienced jumpers?

This is in no way a personal attack, and I don't think you are a jumpsnob for not wanting to throw your money away at attempts that just won't go.

[flyangel2 2]

I'm going to try and answer both Nullified and rjf98 post in my one post.

Nullified said:

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Thing is, if breaking records is the goal, shouldn't those who have the talent be allowed?

Agreed as I said before. If jumpers have the talent, bring them on.

Nullified said:

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Look at the new Alabama CRW record. A 9-stack.
I don't know the particulars of who came from where, but if this is a mostly local talent record, I think it's much more admirable than if Chris Gay were to take his buddies down there and build a quadraplane diamond and claim a 16-way record.

Again, I agree. Taking the talent that was there to build and break or set a new record isn't easy. But the question you need to ask yourself, what or was there a record before? If not, why not start smaller and build from it. This will allow people that want to join in later down the road to do so. But it's going to get to the point in size that local jumpers and talent aren't going to be able to handle it. That's when out of state jumpers with the talent are asked to join in. I don't see a problem with that.

Nullified said:

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What about the locals who may be able to participate in a 40-way state record, but don't have the talent to participate in a 100-way state record, where 60 of the participants are visitors? They're being excluded not because they don't represent some of the top talent locally, but because they don't represent top talent on a national level, which is where the participants are being pooled from

Understood. But where does the current record stand? Take for example the Texas state record. It now stands at 124, most of the jumpers on that record where from out of state. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure years ago, the number for the Texas state record was a lot smaller number. The organizers started thinking, hey we can make this bigger, and why not. So bigger they went. In Colorado the state record stands at about 64 way ( I think) Ya think we're going to be happy with that in a few years? No way, we'll go bigger, but in order to do that, we need to pull out of state talent in for it to work.

All jumpers need to start out some where. It took me lots of traveling to different events to make a name for myself. I was even cut from some because I lacked the talent. Did that make me give up? No, I continued to try and improve, and that's what the other jumpers that want to be on a record need to do.

rjf98 said:

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I think I don't undestand you appeal to big way events. Is it really the chance to hold "some kind of record" after it's all said and done? Or do you genuinly like jumping big ways and traveling to do it?

I love traveling and jumping big ways. Getting a record at the end of the event is icing on the cake. I traveled to a number of events this year, and only walked away with three new records. If records were my first concern, then I wouldn't be traveling.

rjf98 said:

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I understand not wanting to travel and spend your money on an attempt that won't complete. What I don't understand is this need to be a part of a record in a state that you don't really claim as your own.[]

Because I like to challenge myself. If I just stayed and jumped in Colorado, I wouldn't get the type of challenge I find when I'm jumping on bigger ways. If I knew for a fact that an event or record wasn't going to be made, because of the jumpers that were on it, I then wouldn't go. Word gets out when an event is happening, as to who has been invited and who hasn't. The organizers of an event is also what attracts me. I enjoy jumping with different organizers that have set up a challenging skydive.

rjf98 said:

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Now if a big way jumper were all that talented, they wouldn't be just waiting for the next record they could break easily, wouldn't they want to be part of a national, or world record attempt? Those are ground breaking.

No big way record is ever easy to break. I myself have been invited to National and World events. At this time in my life because of health and family issues, I'm not able to attend a World event. Does that make me less talented? Also, attending state level events are easier on my travel expenses.

rjg98 said:

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My sentiments are still with Nullified. Some small state with limited jump season (I don't know... let's just say New Hampshire) puts together a 60 way. It's got 50% local talent. To me much more impressive than a group of big way enthusiast that go to the location and put together a 150 way. If they put the 150 way together great! That's really cool. But what's the difference of doing it in New Hampshire or Arizona or anywhere else for that matter?

I'm sure if a "big name" organizer like Guy Wright, or Roger Ponce send out invitation to hold an event in New Hampshire, they would get the folks there. Just the idea of getting 150 way any where is exciting. To me it doesn't matter if it's in New Hampshire or Arizona. So, am I limited in my travels to be on big ways because I don't live in the state that is holding the event?

rjf98 said:

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My real question is this. What's the draw flyangel2? Nabbing some record that could easily be broken by a large group of experienced jumpers?

As I said before, no record is a guarantee to be broken. I've never been on a big way that was easy. Even the 60 plus way here in Colorado. The draw for me is the challenge. Sorry, most times a new state record is made, we don't get certificates to hang on the wall. So, that can't be the draw for me.

Can I ask both Nullified and rjf98, what is your history with big way events?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[gemini 0]

There are many things a big way organizer has to consider before accepting anyone on a big way jump.

Although I am by no means an expert in this area, I would think it would be hard in most states to meet the criteria that require a safe big way with a reasonable chance of completion.

1. Safety-Can the individual flat track and pull only at the designated altitude?

2. Safety-Does the individual have any Big Way (100+) experience or has he/she been recommended by a big way captain who has jumped with the individual?

3. Safety-Can the individual consistently dock without momentum 18th or later?

4. Safety-Has the individual been to a big way camp or jumped with a competition RW team?

5. Safety-can the individual fly a no grip slot?

6. Safety-can the individual get to his sector safely and traverse the red zone directly to his slot?

7. Safety-Does the individual have the discipline to fly to his slot in his exit order?

8. Safety-Can the individual personally stop a wave rippling through the formation? Note: Although this is not possible, each jumper must have the attitude that he CAN stop the wave.

9. Monetary-Can the jumper afford the cost of the big way event and the travel expenses to get there?

10. Admin-Can the jumper follow directions to the letter and keep quiet during briefings and dirt dives?

11. Trust-Does the organizer know that he can depend on the jumper?

I know there are many more things to consider.

In Texas we have 13 USPA dropzones. In the last two record attempts there was a large contingent of local jumpers who were approved to participate. However the record probably would not have been set if we solely relied on local talent because there is not enough qualified local talent at this time.

There were also a large number of jumpers who were not qualified to participate who applied to jump on the record. This included jumpers with less than 500 jumps, jumpers who were not current, jumpers with a reputation of not being safe on big ways, jumpers who frequently went low on RW jumps or could not dock in their slots with the correct grips, and unfortunately jumpers who were not known to any of the organizers or team captains.

Think about your dz. When you do 20-ways do you have a 20-way with all low time jumpers, or do you try to mix the old timers with the newbies? Remember that the cost of the jumps is huge (e.g. 125 jumpers x $25 x 15 jumps) and no one wants the attempt to fail.

We all know what it feels like when we go low on a formation...how would it feel to be the one low man on a 125 way?

The organizers want the jump to complete and they do their best to pick the best people from those that are available who they know have the best chance of making the formation.

Personally, it is not the state record that excites me into attempting big ways. It is the chance to prove I can make the formation and be a part of something that took months to plan, but is only whole for 3 to 7 seconds.

My 2 cents. Thanks.

Blue skies,

Jim

[kallend 2,146]

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***Q. What "official" body in the state of California ratifies California skydiving records?

A. There isn't one.

That's why these records are unofficial, and have no set rules about who may participate etc.

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Wouldn't it be as simple as having a USPA representative present to verify that the predeclared goal was attained?
I'm asking, not challenging.

Stay safe,
Mike

Well, you can always ask USPA and see if they're interested. There are lots of unofficial records around - for example, last April Flyangel and I were both on the 2 point 120 way at Z Hills. This was a "World record" sequential skydive, but no organization like the FAI or Guinness recognizes it - it is quite unofficial. In July the Cross-Keys group attempted to break it (but didn't) and about a month ago a group at Perris tried (and also didn't). So it's generally acknowledged as a record worth breaking, despite being unofficial.

Would we try harder if FAI recognized it? I doubt it.

Then there are the POPS records. What's so special about being over 40 and on a big-way? Nothing really, it's just an excuse to get together with others and do some big-ways. Ought to be fun, and is fun unless it gets too serious.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[lug 4]

I think there should be at least 50% of the participants from the region on a state record and 75% on a regional record. All the rest are hired guns.

Memento Mori

[Nullified 0]

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Nullified said:
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Thing is, if breaking records is the goal, shouldn't those who have the talent be allowed?

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Agreed as I said before. If jumpers have the talent, bring them on.

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My quote above which you responded to is out of context. I was refering to locals who would have the ability required to participate in a smaller record made up of mostly locals, but not the talent to partipate in a larger State record made up of more 'national' talent than local talent. The point I was trying to make was that by pulling in so many outside people, you're now creating something that less of the local talent are able to participate in, thereby denying those people the opportunity to participate in their own state record attempt.

Nullified said:
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Look at the new Alabama CRW record. A 9-stack.
I don't know the particulars of who came from where, but if this is a mostly local talent record, I think it's much more admirable than if Chris Gay were to take his buddies down there and build a quadraplane diamond and claim a 16-way record.

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Again, I agree. Taking the talent that was there to build and break or set a new record isn't easy. But the question you need to ask yourself, what or was there a record before? If not, why not start smaller and build from it. This will allow people that want to join in later down the road to do so. But it's going to get to the point in size that local jumpers and talent aren't going to be able to handle it. That's when out of state jumpers with the talent are asked to join in. I don't see a problem with that.

By bringing in more outside talent than locals, the record loses any indication of the talent available in a particular area. All that really matters then is, how many people are willing to travel to so and so state.
Why not just call a record attempt, "The Jack Jefferies Record", or "The Wright Attitude Posse Record" or, "The Chris Gay Dogs Record?"

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Understood. But where does the current record stand? Take for example the Texas state record. It now stands at 124, most of the jumpers on that record where from out of state. I don't know for a fact, but I'm sure years ago, the number for the Texas state record was a lot smaller number. The organizers started thinking, hey we can make this bigger, and why not. So bigger they went. In Colorado the state record stands at about 64 way ( I think) Ya think we're going to be happy with that in a few years? No way, we'll go bigger, but in order to do that, we need to pull out of state talent in for it to work.

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Sure. But, then it simply becomes about breaking the record. It no longer has anything to do with the state. The state in which it occurs becomes arbitrary. It's just a big way that's been chosen to be attempted at a location that has only had less-big big ways.
If the record is made up of mostly local talent, it has a completely different and more personal sense of satisfaction to it, I think to both locals and the handful of outside friends that have been invited to participate.

I'm sure if a "big name" organizer like Guy Wright, or Roger Ponce send out invitation to hold an event in New Hampshire, they would get the folks there. Just the idea of getting 150 way any where is exciting. To me it doesn't matter if it's in New Hampshire or Arizona. So, am I limited in my travels to be on big ways because I don't live in the state that is holding the event?

It is exciting, and a beautiful thing...no matter where it happens. So then, why not just call it a big-way boogie somewhere, without it having to take place in a state where it will be a new record?

Everybody, I'm not trying to criticize anybody. I do appreciate everything that goes in to these records.
But indifference to the percentage of locals involved is like saying, anyone can participate in the Miss California Contest, so long as you're hot...and a girl.
***
Can I ask both Nullified and rjf98, what is your history with big way events?

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I don't have any experience as a big-way participant.
Biggest RW jump I've been on was a 16-way.
If someday I'm invited to be on a CRW state record, I promise you that I won't unless there are a greater number of locals involved than non-locals.
There are plenty of other big-ways happening out there.

In closing, I'm not taking this poll in order to send a message or bust balls, or anything else like that. Just curious, that was all, and putting my thoughts out there.
I wish everyone the greatest success and safety.

Time for a nice fountain Coke!
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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[happythoughts 0]

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for example, last April Flyangel and I were both on the 2 point 120 way at Z Hills. This was a "World record" sequential skydive

I'm ok with World Record attempts, but most of the participants must be from here.