nicrussell 0 #1 October 29, 2003 I am not sure if this has been a topic lately, just curious is to why a lot of skydivers are nervous (perhaps over-dramatic about it) landing in the aircraft? With the same pilot whom you trusted to take-off and fly you to altitude. A pilot who had (at least in the USA) passed thorough FAA testing through the commerical level or beyond. The same pilots who lands the planes load in and load out, day in and day out. nic EDITED TO INFORM: I myself am a Commercially Rated Pilot and a Flight Instructor. I like landing in airplanes and jumping out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wallygator 0 #2 October 29, 2003 landed the plane twice, didn't feel right at altitude so i rode the plane to the ground . I think it has to do with the landings itself being higher risk than takeoff or maybe its just ego. maybe a pilot on this forumn can offer insight on landings with no-go's -------------------------------------------------- who Jah bless Let no man curse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #3 October 29, 2003 A lot of skydivers seem to have a strong misconception that skydiving is safe, and other things are dangerous. I'm not really sure why this is the case, but I suspect delusion. Skydivers think driving to the DZ is more dangerous then jumping. Skydivers think landing in an airplane is more dangerous then jumping. Both make very little sense. That said, I've taken off in planes probably about 550 times. I've landed in planes probably 20 times, including those times I've flown commercially. I suspect the ratio of takeoffs to landings is probably similar for most skydivers. It's natural that we'd feel uncomfortable landing because we so rarely actually do it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #4 October 29, 2003 I am not nervous abut landing in the plane I just hate paying for the plane ride and not jumping. In 4 years and 630 jumps I have only landed with the plane 4 times. On one of the times I was coaching a Hop-n-pop for a students first so we needed 5500 AGL and only had 4000 AGL Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #5 October 29, 2003 It's no big deal to land in the aircraft, I just choose to not fly in conditions where that may be an issue.If yhe plane goes up and weather moves in you don't get your money back. I have landed in the rain rather than land with the airplane( yes it was stupid).These days I try to make better choices about the weather before I go upPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #6 October 29, 2003 I voted "I like landing in airplanes" because I am a licensed private pilot. Knock on wood, I have yet to have to land in a jump plane (to date I have jumped from every airplane I've been on wearing a skydiving rig). But if need be, I will let the pilot land and I won't freak out like so many skydivers seem to unrationally do when the topic of landing in an airplanes comes up. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nullified 0 #7 October 29, 2003 ***I am not sure if this has been a topic lately, just curious is to why a lot of skydivers are nervous (perhaps over-dramatic about it) landing in the aircraft? With the same pilot whom you trusted to take-off and fly you to altitude. A pilot who had (at least in the USA) passed thorough FAA testing through the commerical level or beyond. The same pilots who lands the planes load in and load out, day in and day out. Quote I don't think (could be wrong) that anyone is truly nervous about riding the plane down. Probably has more to do with the experience being so anticlimactic. Stay safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #8 October 29, 2003 Years ago was the only time I got out of the airplane when most of the load decided to stay in and land. I was in a Beech that was going to have to land on a short cross wind runway. I trusted the pilot, but was worried about the shortness of the runway and the wind with the weight in the aircraft. I figured out my wing loading, since I wear weights and not always the same amount, and decided I would take my chances getting out in the high winds. Funny story to add on to that. A lower time jumper was also in the Beech, and we told him to stay put, since he didn't have the experience in those type of winds. After some of us got out, we realized that the lower experience jumper had also gotten out. He was under the typical student canopy and got drug to Kansas. After we picked him up, he was very impressed that I didn't have any dirt on my jumpsuit. Shocked that a "girl could land in those kinds of winds." The pilot was glad that a few of us got out. In the end, it was a happy ending. I don't get in any aircraft if I don't trust the pilot to take me to altitude and back down again.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #9 October 29, 2003 I have to be honest in that It feels odd to land in the plane. I wouldn't say I become nervous. After doing so many take offs and much fewer landings it just feels strange. Now if the pilot jumped out and I had to land the plane. that would be a different story. Then I'd just point it toward the ocean and bail ... assuming I could figure out how to point it toward the ocean. I'm easily entertained so I look around and watch other peoples faces and their reactions of fright and dismay about landing with the aircraft.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #10 October 29, 2003 Knock on skull I've never had to land in a jump plane. I don't mind it on commercial flights, but I always do a handle check once the flaps come down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites McDuck 0 #11 October 29, 2003 My girlfriend is working on her instrument rating, then moving on to her commercial rating. We're both skydivers as well, and we don't have any issues either way. Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28 "I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #12 October 30, 2003 I would be fine if I were the one landing the plane. Its a control issue. Riding the plane down doesn't really bother me that much. It's just that I would rather be the one in the drivers seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #13 October 30, 2003 Actually, there really is a risk in landing with the plane. I know I tell people to pipe down about complaining about landing in the plane. But truthfully there is a risk. The pilot normally lands empty. He is used to landing like that. Landing full and heavy is something rare and if care is not taken the chances of stalling on final are higher if they try to fly their normal pattern and airspeed. Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. Having a load on the plane actually is different than manuevering while empty. The stall speed is higher for all flight regimes. The pilot got into an accelerated stall and crashed killing all. Another jump plane did a go around in Arkansas and crashed. Planes react slower and perform less the heavier they are. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripper0289 0 #14 October 30, 2003 Hi all, My name's Leonard, I'm an AFF student at Skydive PA, I've ridden the plane 7 times and jumped 6. When I rode the plane back down, my arm was tingling, I didn't feel safe jumping. Rather than chiding me at all, everyone told me I did the right thing. I wonder if the world of "whuffos" realize just how safety oriented this sport is? I think it was after that ride down that I realized that this is a sport I can stick with and feel reasonably comfortable. You guys all rock! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #15 October 30, 2003 QuoteActually, there really is a risk in landing with the plane. I know I tell people to pipe down about complaining about landing in the plane. But truthfully there is a risk. The pilot normally lands empty. He is used to landing like that. Landing full and heavy is something rare and if care is not taken the chances of stalling on final are higher if they try to fly their normal pattern and airspeed. Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. Having a load on the plane actually is different than manuevering while empty. The stall speed is higher for all flight regimes. The pilot got into an accelerated stall and crashed killing all. Another jump plane did a go around in Arkansas and crashed. Planes react slower and perform less the heavier they are. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach. I bet you wish your passengers would jump out when you're flying for the airline, too? Would make landing easier.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #16 October 30, 2003 Quote Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach. Chris, It sounds as if this jump pilot was more in the businessof impressing the jumpers and the DZ than keeping his "cargo" safe. It was my intention to find out about how many jumpers would and would not land in the aircraft and why. In my specific history I've landed (with a rig on) 5 times. 1 was a no-go on a demo (should have been 2), 3 times weather related, and 1 time because I heard that a certain king air is quite fun to ride down in. You know for fun. As a pilot in command you should always be on top of your game, evaluating and thinking constantly. Just because you have a few jumpers or a full load on landing isn't an excuse for poor piloting. Flying like a cowboy doesn't impress anyone that you put in danger, nor does it gain you any real respect. nic russell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #17 October 30, 2003 I've never landed with the plane when I planned to jump, but if I had to I wouldn't mind...too much. One hesitation... a very hard landing in a plane with no seats wouldn't be any fun. Modern aircraft seats are designed to absorb huge loads in very hard (crash) landings. No big deal since I don't expect the pilot to crash, but if something did go wrong, we don't get the protection that seats give. A couple weeks ago I saw the seats of a blackhawk helicopter that basically fell out of the sky from 100 feet when another helicopter's sling load took it's rotor blades off. Amazingly, everyone survived, all thanks to the design of the seats. Planes don't usually have seats capable of that kind of abuse, but they still help. As a pilot, I love taking skydivers for plane rides. They are SO amused by landings. The only time I ever got a round of applause for a landing was when I landed a few skydivers on a nice soft grass runway (grass landings usually feel smooth). One guy had over 100 jumps and only 1 other landing in a plane. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Patman 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Chris, You unfortunately make it sound like it is DANGEROUS to land with the airplane. It sounds like you are saying the pilots flying jumpers are not good at landing their jump ships with loads. You do it every time you fly, what makes it different with these commercial pilots than you? I believe the training a pilot is put through makes sure speeds and loads along with CG's are discussed. I had it in my private training. I believe what you mean to say is that there is always a risk during the landing portion of flight along with the rest of the time, but take off and landing are the most prone to accidents in VFR conditions. Not knocking you, just didn't care for the way it sounded toward jump pilots. Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #19 October 30, 2003 QuoteI am not sure if this has been a topic lately, just curious is to why a lot of skydivers are nervous (perhaps over-dramatic about it) landing in the aircraft? I like landing Cessna 172s in light winds and have no problem with other pilots doing the same. When the winds are below 30 MPH and I have a choice, I'm skydiving. That means riding down skydiving aircraft only happens when the winds are in excess of many aircraft's maximum demonstrated cross-wind component, or are at least high enough to make me nervous. I've seen one skydiving pilot drift off the runway in that situation, another pilot flip his plane, and really don't want to experience situations like those from inside the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #20 October 30, 2003 I agree completely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #21 October 30, 2003 QuoteChris, You unfortunately make it sound like it is DANGEROUS to land with the airplane. It sounds like you are saying the pilots flying jumpers are not good at landing their jump ships with loads. You do it every time you fly, what makes it different with these commercial pilots than you? I believe the training a pilot is put through makes sure speeds and loads along with CG's are discussed. I had it in my private training. I believe what you mean to say is that there is always a risk during the landing portion of flight along with the rest of the time, but take off and landing are the most prone to accidents in VFR conditions. Not knocking you, just didn't care for the way it sounded toward jump pilots. No, you read my words correctly the first time. How it sounded it how I meant it. There is an added risk landing with a jump pilot who only 99.99% of the time lands empty. It's called complacency. It can happen to any pilot. We takeoff heavy and land empty. Load after load. You get in a routine. When you have to land with the load you are taken out of that routine. It is nothing to do with inate flying ability rather a function of training, experience, and situation. Now you have a load of people who say out loud they don't want to land with you. That's a distraction. You can hear them squirm in the back. The plane you trained in for your commercial license is unlikely the one you are using to fly jumpers in. When I land in the Otter with a load I have to mentally remind myself about the changing scenario. And I know pilots who have not done that and landed hard or worse. It's a real issue. I'm not saying that landing with the plane is extremely dangerous. But I'm pointing out for the pilots reading this that there are considerations you need to keep in mind not only about performance but about you own personal experience. Don't let your habits get in the way of your flying. Sorry you didn't like the way I said it. I just speak my mind.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #22 October 30, 2003 all depends on the pilot..i've ridden down where i felt like we were taking the express elevator down to the ground and i've ridden down where it was just as smooth as the ride up....all depends on the pilot.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #23 October 30, 2003 The speed at which the aircraft descends all depends on the aircraft, or at least a lot to do with it. Turbine airplanes can descend rather quickly as opposed to planes like the 182 or beech 18 that are susceptible to shock cooling or exceeding the aircrafts limitations. The pilot is usually encouraged to get down fast at turbine DZ's to lower costs and time to get more loads up. A 182 DZ wants thier workhorse to be online for a few season before having to replace an engine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Patman 0 #24 October 31, 2003 Remind me not to fly with you. I agree pilots get into a routine, but to make it sound as if it's dangerous to land with the plane is just plain stupidity. Remind me if skydiving is dangerous. It is still as safe as the ability of the pilot, whether that's you or me. If you feel jump pilots get into a habit that affects the way they handle landing with a load, maybe those pilots should go back to school and start over. I'm not going to keep up an argumentative post by replying anymore, but to those of you who are worried about landing with the plane, it's not magic. You take a chance on skydiving, and the pilot you're with has at least a good three hundred landings in many different planes. Ask your pilot to take you for a fun ride sometime and see that planes are not dangerous to land in. They are actually a great way to travel. As we all know, they give us the ability to do what we do, and to have a pilot feed the fears of those who don't fly is way off base. Educate those who don't know. Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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wallygator 0 #2 October 29, 2003 landed the plane twice, didn't feel right at altitude so i rode the plane to the ground . I think it has to do with the landings itself being higher risk than takeoff or maybe its just ego. maybe a pilot on this forumn can offer insight on landings with no-go's -------------------------------------------------- who Jah bless Let no man curse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #3 October 29, 2003 A lot of skydivers seem to have a strong misconception that skydiving is safe, and other things are dangerous. I'm not really sure why this is the case, but I suspect delusion. Skydivers think driving to the DZ is more dangerous then jumping. Skydivers think landing in an airplane is more dangerous then jumping. Both make very little sense. That said, I've taken off in planes probably about 550 times. I've landed in planes probably 20 times, including those times I've flown commercially. I suspect the ratio of takeoffs to landings is probably similar for most skydivers. It's natural that we'd feel uncomfortable landing because we so rarely actually do it. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #4 October 29, 2003 I am not nervous abut landing in the plane I just hate paying for the plane ride and not jumping. In 4 years and 630 jumps I have only landed with the plane 4 times. On one of the times I was coaching a Hop-n-pop for a students first so we needed 5500 AGL and only had 4000 AGL Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #5 October 29, 2003 It's no big deal to land in the aircraft, I just choose to not fly in conditions where that may be an issue.If yhe plane goes up and weather moves in you don't get your money back. I have landed in the rain rather than land with the airplane( yes it was stupid).These days I try to make better choices about the weather before I go upPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #6 October 29, 2003 I voted "I like landing in airplanes" because I am a licensed private pilot. Knock on wood, I have yet to have to land in a jump plane (to date I have jumped from every airplane I've been on wearing a skydiving rig). But if need be, I will let the pilot land and I won't freak out like so many skydivers seem to unrationally do when the topic of landing in an airplanes comes up. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #7 October 29, 2003 ***I am not sure if this has been a topic lately, just curious is to why a lot of skydivers are nervous (perhaps over-dramatic about it) landing in the aircraft? With the same pilot whom you trusted to take-off and fly you to altitude. A pilot who had (at least in the USA) passed thorough FAA testing through the commerical level or beyond. The same pilots who lands the planes load in and load out, day in and day out. Quote I don't think (could be wrong) that anyone is truly nervous about riding the plane down. Probably has more to do with the experience being so anticlimactic. Stay safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #8 October 29, 2003 Years ago was the only time I got out of the airplane when most of the load decided to stay in and land. I was in a Beech that was going to have to land on a short cross wind runway. I trusted the pilot, but was worried about the shortness of the runway and the wind with the weight in the aircraft. I figured out my wing loading, since I wear weights and not always the same amount, and decided I would take my chances getting out in the high winds. Funny story to add on to that. A lower time jumper was also in the Beech, and we told him to stay put, since he didn't have the experience in those type of winds. After some of us got out, we realized that the lower experience jumper had also gotten out. He was under the typical student canopy and got drug to Kansas. After we picked him up, he was very impressed that I didn't have any dirt on my jumpsuit. Shocked that a "girl could land in those kinds of winds." The pilot was glad that a few of us got out. In the end, it was a happy ending. I don't get in any aircraft if I don't trust the pilot to take me to altitude and back down again.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #9 October 29, 2003 I have to be honest in that It feels odd to land in the plane. I wouldn't say I become nervous. After doing so many take offs and much fewer landings it just feels strange. Now if the pilot jumped out and I had to land the plane. that would be a different story. Then I'd just point it toward the ocean and bail ... assuming I could figure out how to point it toward the ocean. I'm easily entertained so I look around and watch other peoples faces and their reactions of fright and dismay about landing with the aircraft.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Deuce 1 #10 October 29, 2003 Knock on skull I've never had to land in a jump plane. I don't mind it on commercial flights, but I always do a handle check once the flaps come down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites McDuck 0 #11 October 29, 2003 My girlfriend is working on her instrument rating, then moving on to her commercial rating. We're both skydivers as well, and we don't have any issues either way. Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28 "I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #12 October 30, 2003 I would be fine if I were the one landing the plane. Its a control issue. Riding the plane down doesn't really bother me that much. It's just that I would rather be the one in the drivers seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #13 October 30, 2003 Actually, there really is a risk in landing with the plane. I know I tell people to pipe down about complaining about landing in the plane. But truthfully there is a risk. The pilot normally lands empty. He is used to landing like that. Landing full and heavy is something rare and if care is not taken the chances of stalling on final are higher if they try to fly their normal pattern and airspeed. Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. Having a load on the plane actually is different than manuevering while empty. The stall speed is higher for all flight regimes. The pilot got into an accelerated stall and crashed killing all. Another jump plane did a go around in Arkansas and crashed. Planes react slower and perform less the heavier they are. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ripper0289 0 #14 October 30, 2003 Hi all, My name's Leonard, I'm an AFF student at Skydive PA, I've ridden the plane 7 times and jumped 6. When I rode the plane back down, my arm was tingling, I didn't feel safe jumping. Rather than chiding me at all, everyone told me I did the right thing. I wonder if the world of "whuffos" realize just how safety oriented this sport is? I think it was after that ride down that I realized that this is a sport I can stick with and feel reasonably comfortable. You guys all rock! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #15 October 30, 2003 QuoteActually, there really is a risk in landing with the plane. I know I tell people to pipe down about complaining about landing in the plane. But truthfully there is a risk. The pilot normally lands empty. He is used to landing like that. Landing full and heavy is something rare and if care is not taken the chances of stalling on final are higher if they try to fly their normal pattern and airspeed. Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. Having a load on the plane actually is different than manuevering while empty. The stall speed is higher for all flight regimes. The pilot got into an accelerated stall and crashed killing all. Another jump plane did a go around in Arkansas and crashed. Planes react slower and perform less the heavier they are. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach. I bet you wish your passengers would jump out when you're flying for the airline, too? Would make landing easier.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #16 October 30, 2003 Quote Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach. Chris, It sounds as if this jump pilot was more in the businessof impressing the jumpers and the DZ than keeping his "cargo" safe. It was my intention to find out about how many jumpers would and would not land in the aircraft and why. In my specific history I've landed (with a rig on) 5 times. 1 was a no-go on a demo (should have been 2), 3 times weather related, and 1 time because I heard that a certain king air is quite fun to ride down in. You know for fun. As a pilot in command you should always be on top of your game, evaluating and thinking constantly. Just because you have a few jumpers or a full load on landing isn't an excuse for poor piloting. Flying like a cowboy doesn't impress anyone that you put in danger, nor does it gain you any real respect. nic russell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #17 October 30, 2003 I've never landed with the plane when I planned to jump, but if I had to I wouldn't mind...too much. One hesitation... a very hard landing in a plane with no seats wouldn't be any fun. Modern aircraft seats are designed to absorb huge loads in very hard (crash) landings. No big deal since I don't expect the pilot to crash, but if something did go wrong, we don't get the protection that seats give. A couple weeks ago I saw the seats of a blackhawk helicopter that basically fell out of the sky from 100 feet when another helicopter's sling load took it's rotor blades off. Amazingly, everyone survived, all thanks to the design of the seats. Planes don't usually have seats capable of that kind of abuse, but they still help. As a pilot, I love taking skydivers for plane rides. They are SO amused by landings. The only time I ever got a round of applause for a landing was when I landed a few skydivers on a nice soft grass runway (grass landings usually feel smooth). One guy had over 100 jumps and only 1 other landing in a plane. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Patman 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Chris, You unfortunately make it sound like it is DANGEROUS to land with the airplane. It sounds like you are saying the pilots flying jumpers are not good at landing their jump ships with loads. You do it every time you fly, what makes it different with these commercial pilots than you? I believe the training a pilot is put through makes sure speeds and loads along with CG's are discussed. I had it in my private training. I believe what you mean to say is that there is always a risk during the landing portion of flight along with the rest of the time, but take off and landing are the most prone to accidents in VFR conditions. Not knocking you, just didn't care for the way it sounded toward jump pilots. Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #19 October 30, 2003 QuoteI am not sure if this has been a topic lately, just curious is to why a lot of skydivers are nervous (perhaps over-dramatic about it) landing in the aircraft? I like landing Cessna 172s in light winds and have no problem with other pilots doing the same. When the winds are below 30 MPH and I have a choice, I'm skydiving. That means riding down skydiving aircraft only happens when the winds are in excess of many aircraft's maximum demonstrated cross-wind component, or are at least high enough to make me nervous. I've seen one skydiving pilot drift off the runway in that situation, another pilot flip his plane, and really don't want to experience situations like those from inside the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #20 October 30, 2003 I agree completely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 6 #21 October 30, 2003 QuoteChris, You unfortunately make it sound like it is DANGEROUS to land with the airplane. It sounds like you are saying the pilots flying jumpers are not good at landing their jump ships with loads. You do it every time you fly, what makes it different with these commercial pilots than you? I believe the training a pilot is put through makes sure speeds and loads along with CG's are discussed. I had it in my private training. I believe what you mean to say is that there is always a risk during the landing portion of flight along with the rest of the time, but take off and landing are the most prone to accidents in VFR conditions. Not knocking you, just didn't care for the way it sounded toward jump pilots. No, you read my words correctly the first time. How it sounded it how I meant it. There is an added risk landing with a jump pilot who only 99.99% of the time lands empty. It's called complacency. It can happen to any pilot. We takeoff heavy and land empty. Load after load. You get in a routine. When you have to land with the load you are taken out of that routine. It is nothing to do with inate flying ability rather a function of training, experience, and situation. Now you have a load of people who say out loud they don't want to land with you. That's a distraction. You can hear them squirm in the back. The plane you trained in for your commercial license is unlikely the one you are using to fly jumpers in. When I land in the Otter with a load I have to mentally remind myself about the changing scenario. And I know pilots who have not done that and landed hard or worse. It's a real issue. I'm not saying that landing with the plane is extremely dangerous. But I'm pointing out for the pilots reading this that there are considerations you need to keep in mind not only about performance but about you own personal experience. Don't let your habits get in the way of your flying. Sorry you didn't like the way I said it. I just speak my mind.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites funks 1 #22 October 30, 2003 all depends on the pilot..i've ridden down where i felt like we were taking the express elevator down to the ground and i've ridden down where it was just as smooth as the ride up....all depends on the pilot.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #23 October 30, 2003 The speed at which the aircraft descends all depends on the aircraft, or at least a lot to do with it. Turbine airplanes can descend rather quickly as opposed to planes like the 182 or beech 18 that are susceptible to shock cooling or exceeding the aircrafts limitations. The pilot is usually encouraged to get down fast at turbine DZ's to lower costs and time to get more loads up. A 182 DZ wants thier workhorse to be online for a few season before having to replace an engine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Patman 0 #24 October 31, 2003 Remind me not to fly with you. I agree pilots get into a routine, but to make it sound as if it's dangerous to land with the plane is just plain stupidity. Remind me if skydiving is dangerous. It is still as safe as the ability of the pilot, whether that's you or me. If you feel jump pilots get into a habit that affects the way they handle landing with a load, maybe those pilots should go back to school and start over. I'm not going to keep up an argumentative post by replying anymore, but to those of you who are worried about landing with the plane, it's not magic. You take a chance on skydiving, and the pilot you're with has at least a good three hundred landings in many different planes. Ask your pilot to take you for a fun ride sometime and see that planes are not dangerous to land in. They are actually a great way to travel. As we all know, they give us the ability to do what we do, and to have a pilot feed the fears of those who don't fly is way off base. Educate those who don't know. Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
flyangel2 2 #8 October 29, 2003 Years ago was the only time I got out of the airplane when most of the load decided to stay in and land. I was in a Beech that was going to have to land on a short cross wind runway. I trusted the pilot, but was worried about the shortness of the runway and the wind with the weight in the aircraft. I figured out my wing loading, since I wear weights and not always the same amount, and decided I would take my chances getting out in the high winds. Funny story to add on to that. A lower time jumper was also in the Beech, and we told him to stay put, since he didn't have the experience in those type of winds. After some of us got out, we realized that the lower experience jumper had also gotten out. He was under the typical student canopy and got drug to Kansas. After we picked him up, he was very impressed that I didn't have any dirt on my jumpsuit. Shocked that a "girl could land in those kinds of winds." The pilot was glad that a few of us got out. In the end, it was a happy ending. I don't get in any aircraft if I don't trust the pilot to take me to altitude and back down again.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #9 October 29, 2003 I have to be honest in that It feels odd to land in the plane. I wouldn't say I become nervous. After doing so many take offs and much fewer landings it just feels strange. Now if the pilot jumped out and I had to land the plane. that would be a different story. Then I'd just point it toward the ocean and bail ... assuming I could figure out how to point it toward the ocean. I'm easily entertained so I look around and watch other peoples faces and their reactions of fright and dismay about landing with the aircraft.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #10 October 29, 2003 Knock on skull I've never had to land in a jump plane. I don't mind it on commercial flights, but I always do a handle check once the flaps come down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McDuck 0 #11 October 29, 2003 My girlfriend is working on her instrument rating, then moving on to her commercial rating. We're both skydivers as well, and we don't have any issues either way. Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28 "I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #12 October 30, 2003 I would be fine if I were the one landing the plane. Its a control issue. Riding the plane down doesn't really bother me that much. It's just that I would rather be the one in the drivers seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #13 October 30, 2003 Actually, there really is a risk in landing with the plane. I know I tell people to pipe down about complaining about landing in the plane. But truthfully there is a risk. The pilot normally lands empty. He is used to landing like that. Landing full and heavy is something rare and if care is not taken the chances of stalling on final are higher if they try to fly their normal pattern and airspeed. Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. Having a load on the plane actually is different than manuevering while empty. The stall speed is higher for all flight regimes. The pilot got into an accelerated stall and crashed killing all. Another jump plane did a go around in Arkansas and crashed. Planes react slower and perform less the heavier they are. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripper0289 0 #14 October 30, 2003 Hi all, My name's Leonard, I'm an AFF student at Skydive PA, I've ridden the plane 7 times and jumped 6. When I rode the plane back down, my arm was tingling, I didn't feel safe jumping. Rather than chiding me at all, everyone told me I did the right thing. I wonder if the world of "whuffos" realize just how safety oriented this sport is? I think it was after that ride down that I realized that this is a sport I can stick with and feel reasonably comfortable. You guys all rock! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #15 October 30, 2003 QuoteActually, there really is a risk in landing with the plane. I know I tell people to pipe down about complaining about landing in the plane. But truthfully there is a risk. The pilot normally lands empty. He is used to landing like that. Landing full and heavy is something rare and if care is not taken the chances of stalling on final are higher if they try to fly their normal pattern and airspeed. Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. Having a load on the plane actually is different than manuevering while empty. The stall speed is higher for all flight regimes. The pilot got into an accelerated stall and crashed killing all. Another jump plane did a go around in Arkansas and crashed. Planes react slower and perform less the heavier they are. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach. I bet you wish your passengers would jump out when you're flying for the airline, too? Would make landing easier.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #16 October 30, 2003 Quote Look at the crash in Michigan of a King Air with a full load on board. The pilot took off and turned to come back and buzz the camp ground. So, the fear is actually real. I know when I land with a full load of jumpers I have to remind myself to have more power on than I'm used to in order to maintain the higher approach speed required for a smooth approach. Chris, It sounds as if this jump pilot was more in the businessof impressing the jumpers and the DZ than keeping his "cargo" safe. It was my intention to find out about how many jumpers would and would not land in the aircraft and why. In my specific history I've landed (with a rig on) 5 times. 1 was a no-go on a demo (should have been 2), 3 times weather related, and 1 time because I heard that a certain king air is quite fun to ride down in. You know for fun. As a pilot in command you should always be on top of your game, evaluating and thinking constantly. Just because you have a few jumpers or a full load on landing isn't an excuse for poor piloting. Flying like a cowboy doesn't impress anyone that you put in danger, nor does it gain you any real respect. nic russell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #17 October 30, 2003 I've never landed with the plane when I planned to jump, but if I had to I wouldn't mind...too much. One hesitation... a very hard landing in a plane with no seats wouldn't be any fun. Modern aircraft seats are designed to absorb huge loads in very hard (crash) landings. No big deal since I don't expect the pilot to crash, but if something did go wrong, we don't get the protection that seats give. A couple weeks ago I saw the seats of a blackhawk helicopter that basically fell out of the sky from 100 feet when another helicopter's sling load took it's rotor blades off. Amazingly, everyone survived, all thanks to the design of the seats. Planes don't usually have seats capable of that kind of abuse, but they still help. As a pilot, I love taking skydivers for plane rides. They are SO amused by landings. The only time I ever got a round of applause for a landing was when I landed a few skydivers on a nice soft grass runway (grass landings usually feel smooth). One guy had over 100 jumps and only 1 other landing in a plane. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patman 0 #18 October 30, 2003 Chris, You unfortunately make it sound like it is DANGEROUS to land with the airplane. It sounds like you are saying the pilots flying jumpers are not good at landing their jump ships with loads. You do it every time you fly, what makes it different with these commercial pilots than you? I believe the training a pilot is put through makes sure speeds and loads along with CG's are discussed. I had it in my private training. I believe what you mean to say is that there is always a risk during the landing portion of flight along with the rest of the time, but take off and landing are the most prone to accidents in VFR conditions. Not knocking you, just didn't care for the way it sounded toward jump pilots. Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #19 October 30, 2003 QuoteI am not sure if this has been a topic lately, just curious is to why a lot of skydivers are nervous (perhaps over-dramatic about it) landing in the aircraft? I like landing Cessna 172s in light winds and have no problem with other pilots doing the same. When the winds are below 30 MPH and I have a choice, I'm skydiving. That means riding down skydiving aircraft only happens when the winds are in excess of many aircraft's maximum demonstrated cross-wind component, or are at least high enough to make me nervous. I've seen one skydiving pilot drift off the runway in that situation, another pilot flip his plane, and really don't want to experience situations like those from inside the plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #20 October 30, 2003 I agree completely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 6 #21 October 30, 2003 QuoteChris, You unfortunately make it sound like it is DANGEROUS to land with the airplane. It sounds like you are saying the pilots flying jumpers are not good at landing their jump ships with loads. You do it every time you fly, what makes it different with these commercial pilots than you? I believe the training a pilot is put through makes sure speeds and loads along with CG's are discussed. I had it in my private training. I believe what you mean to say is that there is always a risk during the landing portion of flight along with the rest of the time, but take off and landing are the most prone to accidents in VFR conditions. Not knocking you, just didn't care for the way it sounded toward jump pilots. No, you read my words correctly the first time. How it sounded it how I meant it. There is an added risk landing with a jump pilot who only 99.99% of the time lands empty. It's called complacency. It can happen to any pilot. We takeoff heavy and land empty. Load after load. You get in a routine. When you have to land with the load you are taken out of that routine. It is nothing to do with inate flying ability rather a function of training, experience, and situation. Now you have a load of people who say out loud they don't want to land with you. That's a distraction. You can hear them squirm in the back. The plane you trained in for your commercial license is unlikely the one you are using to fly jumpers in. When I land in the Otter with a load I have to mentally remind myself about the changing scenario. And I know pilots who have not done that and landed hard or worse. It's a real issue. I'm not saying that landing with the plane is extremely dangerous. But I'm pointing out for the pilots reading this that there are considerations you need to keep in mind not only about performance but about you own personal experience. Don't let your habits get in the way of your flying. Sorry you didn't like the way I said it. I just speak my mind.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #22 October 30, 2003 all depends on the pilot..i've ridden down where i felt like we were taking the express elevator down to the ground and i've ridden down where it was just as smooth as the ride up....all depends on the pilot.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #23 October 30, 2003 The speed at which the aircraft descends all depends on the aircraft, or at least a lot to do with it. Turbine airplanes can descend rather quickly as opposed to planes like the 182 or beech 18 that are susceptible to shock cooling or exceeding the aircrafts limitations. The pilot is usually encouraged to get down fast at turbine DZ's to lower costs and time to get more loads up. A 182 DZ wants thier workhorse to be online for a few season before having to replace an engine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patman 0 #24 October 31, 2003 Remind me not to fly with you. I agree pilots get into a routine, but to make it sound as if it's dangerous to land with the plane is just plain stupidity. Remind me if skydiving is dangerous. It is still as safe as the ability of the pilot, whether that's you or me. If you feel jump pilots get into a habit that affects the way they handle landing with a load, maybe those pilots should go back to school and start over. I'm not going to keep up an argumentative post by replying anymore, but to those of you who are worried about landing with the plane, it's not magic. You take a chance on skydiving, and the pilot you're with has at least a good three hundred landings in many different planes. Ask your pilot to take you for a fun ride sometime and see that planes are not dangerous to land in. They are actually a great way to travel. As we all know, they give us the ability to do what we do, and to have a pilot feed the fears of those who don't fly is way off base. Educate those who don't know. Don't tell me I can't! I already know that! Haven't you seen my x-rays? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
