The "ask your instructor" thread

[riddler 0]

Experienced jumpers - please be cautious when giving advice to students, and append recommendations with "ask your instructor". Students - please pay attention to what the experienced jumpers say, but use caution when taking advice from anyone that isn't an instructor, and remember to discuss anything you hear with your instructor.

Students look up to experienced jumpers and want to hear their experiences, glean from their knowledge and feel like a skydiver by just hanging out. I hope we can encourage more experienced jumpers to welcome students - I was pretty much ignored by the skygods when I started jumping and had to make my own friends among fellow students. I'd just like to ask this favor from experienced jumpers. Please remember that students are not experienced jumpers. They don't have your skill level, awareness and confidence in the sky. You were at that level once, and you've probably forgotten much of what is was like. Instructors have taken classes to remember what it's like to be a student, and also to make sure that we teach students in a uniform, consistent manner. If you tell a student something different, you may undermine that teaching and confuse them. We all know that moving 120 MPH toward the ground is not a place for confusion.

I haven't been teaching long, but in my short time, I often hear students repeat some tidbit of information that they heard at the bonfire from an experienced jumper. Said information may be fine for some or even all experienced jumpers, but not for students. In my opinion, it's great for up-jumpers to chat with students, even give advice. But if you do give advice, please append your statements with "ask your instructor". Maybe even throw in a "this is just my opinion".

I know this has been discussed here before, but I don't think everyone is listening, because it keeps coming up. Rules in your country or dropzone may be different, but it's important that the students hear the same thing from everyone that jumps at your DZ. When they get their A license, then they can start making their own decisions about how to skydive.

[kelpdiver 2]

Is it a given that jump instructors are more skillful than the average jumper? In other sports, the instructors have (hopefully) a solid base in the sport, and good knowledge of how to teach students. But sometimes that means they are only capable of teaching entry level skills. Or by the nature of their charter, are not even permitted to discuss certain topics. I wouldn't ask a MSF instructor about how to safely lanesplit on a motorcycle. Since it is only legal in California, they don't cover it. And let's not broach the subject of scuba instructors.

We know there are lots of jumpers who think they know much more than they do. But are there any subject matters where they may be right?

One unfortunately reality of a busy DZ is that the instructors are frequently doing back to back (to back!) runs and may not be around for an hour or longer. A good reason to get to know, and to jump with more than one of them.

I do strongly agree with the suggestion that people think about the advice they give.

[AggieDave 6]

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I do strongly agree with the suggestion that people think about the advice they give.

Most definately!


Stating that students should ask their instructors is much more then what a lot of folks see. Quite a few jumpers, I've seen, get pissy if someone suggests that they shouldn't be giving certain advice to students, that the instructors should be. Its not due to a lack of skill or knowledge, its due to how the students are taught and WHAT they are taught.

Ask 10 different people how to do turns while belly flying and I bet you get 10 different answers. Ask every instructor on my DZ how they teach turns to a student and you'll get 1 answer! Why? We work hard and strive to teach the same techniques to all of our students (although we may approach the student differently due to learning styles).

People start putting their own inputs in, that aren't instructors, may be undoing something that the student has had to work very hard to understand and accomplish. So, thanks asshole, you just confused the student and they're going to have to spend the next 3 jumps and $400 worth of student jumps with an instructor to unfuck themselves due to you!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[marks 0]

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its due to how the students are taught and WHAT they are taught.

this statement is soo tru.. it is even more sometimes HOW they are taught..

[riddler 0]

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Is it a given that jump instructors are more skillful than the average jumper?

No! And this is indirectly the point. Skill is most definitely helpful when teaching, but don't assume because you are skilled, you are the best person to teach students, or that your advise is sound. Instructors don't always have the most experience, but they are taught the proper way to instruct students. In nearly every case of a student getting "bad" advice, the experienced jumper that gave it was more experienced than me. But the advice was in direct contradiction to the way that the dropzone teaches students. An experienced jumper doesn't necessarily know that. The instructors are taught and briefed on new policies, etc, when it comes to students, and it's the instructors responsibility to stay abreast of the new guidelines for students - a task that non-instructors aren't required to undertake.

Case in point - an experienced jumper with more than twice my number of jumps recently told an AFF level 1 student that the student can wear scuba gloves on cold days to stay warm. That may be valid for experienced jumpers, but is not something my dropzone allows for students. The experienced jumper is saying something that is completely true and perhaps safe from his perspective, but probably forgot how hard it is to find your handle when you start jumping. Instructors are taught these things and are expected to be mindful of them when instructing students. That is why the training and ratings exist.

I'm not saying that it's bad for experienced jumpers to give advice to students. I am asking that you append to said advice "ask your instructor".

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[TomAiello 26]

It is also important that the instructor understand the limitations of their own knowledge. I say this because I have seen several qualified skydiving instructors trying to teach BASE jumping--when they had only a handful of jumps themselves. The student assumed that "hey, he's an instructor", and apparently the instructor did, too. Worse yet, I once saw a student disregard the advice of one of the world's best BASE jumpers (to go hand held on a first jump from around 500') because his "instructor" (i.e. AFF jumpmaster with around 20 BASE jumps) told him not to be a "pussy".

This phenomenon is, unfortunately, not unique to this situation. I have also seen a qualified BASE instructor (and AFF jumpmaster) giving CRW "instruction", despite the fact that he had only a handful (less than 20) of CRW jumps.

If you are an instructor, be aware of your own limits.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Ron 10]

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People start putting their own inputs in, that aren't instructors, may be undoing something that the student has had to work very hard to understand and accomplish. So, thanks asshole, you just confused the student and they're going to have to spend the next 3 jumps and $400 worth of student jumps with an instructor to unfuck themselves due to you!

I don't talk to students that are not mine. And I don't want you talking to my students.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

One problem is that the definition of student is becoming blurred. Formerly a student was someone on levels 1-7 in AFF, or still on the SL program. Nowadays, you might consider someone a student all the way up to their A license. The problem is that often, these people are NOT under the direct supervision of an instructor, and therefore can get lost in the cracks if they're not careful. Is no advice better than advice that might be wrong from an experienced jumper? That's a tough call.

[AggieDave 6]

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The problem is that often, these people are NOT under the direct supervision of an instructor, and therefore can get lost in the cracks if they're not careful.

Well, if the DZ has their student program implemented using the ISP layed out in the SIM and is properly using their Coaches, then that is not a problem. However, that falls back on a DZ properly implementing the new training program layed out by the SIM and properly using their rated Coaches.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't a pre- A license student do solos w/o a Coach or Instructor after they are cleared to self-jumpmaster? Therein lies the crack they can fall through.

Also, the ISP isn't mandatory.

Derek

[AggieDave 6]

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The problem is that often, these people are NOT under the direct supervision of an instructor, and therefore can get lost in the cracks if they're not careful.

Yup, I understand that.

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can't a pre- A license student do solos w/o a Coach

Not quite, they're cleared for "freefall self-supervision" thus they still have to have a Coach or higher rated instructor to do a gear check on the ground and the plane. So, after a gear check, they can exit and do a "solo", otherwise it'd be really really hard to do the 2 required H&Ps on the A proficency card.

Thus, there is still interaction by atleast a Coach, so there really isn't a crack.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,120]

>However, that falls back on a DZ properly implementing the new
> training program layed out by the SIM and properly using their rated
> Coaches.

Right, but many DZ's are not so strict with the ISP; I would hate for experienced jumpers to avoid newer jumpers for fear that they are "messing up" coaching the jumper is not getting anyway.

[AggieDave 6]

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messing up" coaching the jumper is not getting anyway.

Really, who's fault is that? IMHO, if a DZ isn't training and helping a student all the way to the A and past that, then they're not doing their job.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riddler 0]

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One problem is that the definition of student is becoming blurred.

You're right, Bill. I still consider someone that doesn't have an A license to be a student (following the terminology of the USPA program). What I've seen for the most part with these students that jump solo, but don't have an A license, is that they tend to repeat the patterns of AFF, so for the most part, they don't pick up bad habits at this stage, as long as they don't have too bad of influences. Most of them don't have the face-time with their AFF instructors after they graduate, because the instructors aren't getting paid to work with them anymore and are busy with new students.

I think a big crack in the mentoring or coaching program in USPA is the hand-off from AFF instructor to student. The AFF instructor might help here by taking some time when the students is at level 6 or 7 to start introducing them to a few different coaches. They don't even have to jump together right away - even if they just chat when they're on the ground, it gives students a reference at the DZ for someone to talk to and gain knowledge from if not their AFF instructors. A student can (and definitely should) take some time to do solo jumps after AFF, but a coach can provide good direction on the ground. I've seen skr spend a great deal of time with students on the ground, during weather holds, at the end of the day, etc, just talking with students, giving them things to think about, and "cooking up nutritious jumps" as he would say. He might spend a few hours over several weekends just chatting with a student on the ground before he ever jumps with him/her.

My opinion is that AFF instructor is probably the second toughest job at the DZ. There's a lot of pressure to crank students out the door and not spend time educating them on the ground. The instruction is so fast-paced, there's not time to do everything you want with students. But just a few minutes spent at the end of AFF introducing a student to a coach can do a lot for a new jumper - reduce the isolation they feel at the end of AFF and help give them good direction for continuing education.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[lug 4]

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Correct me if I am wrong, but can't a pre- A license student do solos w/o a Coach or Instructor after they are cleared to self-jumpmaster?

Yes if the S&TA files a formal waver to the BSR’s Section 2-1: E 6 annually with the USPA.

Remember all of you guys out there that a coach can not work with a student with out the supervision of an instructor. I define supervision as being on the DZ some place easily found. How the USPA defines it I don’t know, would any one care to reply this?

As for giving advice. Care should be given when addressing an individual who is still on student status, they are at the most primitive level of skydiving and any advice should be generic if given. Further if you can not give solid advice than push them to their instructor. I say this because this problem of wrong advice giving to student will never end. I see it even on this web sit.

What a student called once cleared from student statues and does not have their A license? A Neophyte?

Memento Mori

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Yes if the S&TA files a formal waver to the BSR’s Section 2-1: E 6 annually with the USPA.

2-1; E-6 only specifys that pre- A license students must jump with a coach when engaging in training for group free fallls, it doesn't say they can't jump solo before getting an A license.

Derek

[lug 4]

Ok,I see what you are saying and yes I am out of context so the answer would be no. In the ISP Catigory E once the student is cleared to self jumpmaster and going to make a solo jumps they should be supervised by either a coach or instructor on the aircraft to verify the correct spot, cloud clearance, exits separation, and gear checks.

Now my point address the DZ that does not want to tie up an instructor or coach for the coaching student doing a solo, then the only way around this is for a none coach or instructor rated jumper to supervise the student. Hence Secton 2-1 E 6. has to be filed.

Memento Mori

[lug 4]

***
In the ISP Catigory E


Should read as Category F

Memento Mori

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

There are instances at our ISP dropzone where people are cleared to cat F (self supervision, hop and pops, and category specific coaching tasks on the "A" card) where some students just want to go up and "punch a hole in the sky" for their own confidence. Yes, that is totally legal (assuming they get a good gear check and someone checks their spot), but those jumps only count toward your jump-number totals in working toward your A license. Some people will do that because the weather is too shitty to get full altitude to do any of the coach dive freefall blocks on their card. On those, they can certainly still accomplish the canopy tasks on their card, they just need someone to watch them and see that they completed the tasks.

Ron's statement makes pretty good sense if you are jumping at a dropzone with a proper zero-to-A student progression. I don't care how many jumps you have, if you circumvent my training plan then you are not doing me any favors. It's my job as a chief instructor to make sure that my students get through the program without skipping any steps. I use the "crawl, walk, run" method. Some 4-way chimp teling my Cat D student that he needs to be flying Mantis and dropping knees on turns is only going to fuck him up. Some wanna-be swooper telling one of my students that if's fine for him to do 360 degree turns below 1000 feet (when he should be flying a proper downwind, base, final landing pattern) is just going to piss ME off.

If your dropzone has people "falling through the cracks", then you guys have a systemic problem that you need to fix. If you don't take care of your own, then don't bitch when people look outside your school for help.

If you barely have your own body under control in freefall, then don't be fucking with my students. Even if you are an accomplished skydiver/competitor/whatever, check with the dropzone school and talk with the chief instructor before trying to "help" one of my students. Your "assistance" may go directly against what the school is teaching. There are many ways to skin a cat, but one need only know one to get the basic job done. You can have them once I am done with them.

Chuck
AFF/SL/TM/BM-I, PRO, S&TA

[sducoach 0]

Chuck,

Right on Bro! The other side of this problem concerns advise from inexperienced "teachers" and some instructors/dzo's who believe they have a better method.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8