Landing short..

[Phillbo 11]

I consistantly land short . I think this is due to a fear of over shooting the landing area. I'm not talking about a big difference but maybe about 30 yards shy of the area I would like to be landing in ( the grass ) .

Any advice to get me over this tendancy ? I assume it's just a matter of getting use to judging my altitude in comparison to my rate of decent and not waiting so long to turn towards the target.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Do you know of the accuracy trick? While under canopy, look at some objects on the ground. Some of those objects will steadily be moving towards your feet (you will over fly these objects) and some objects will steadily move up towards the horizon (you will land short of these objects). Finally, there will be a spot on the ground which doesn't move. If nothing changes (wind and canopy control inputs), this is where you will land.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

about 30 yards shy of the area I would like to be landing in ( the grass ) .

Any advice to get me over this tendancy ?
***

At only 14 jumps your doing damn good if it's only 30 yards. Dont worry about having to land on the grass.
Just have fun, be safe and jump alot!

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

• Quote

[Phillbo 11]

I have heard that trick Canuk. Just can't seem to get it wired yet tho.. I'll focus on it a bit more next time and see if I can get it to work.

[pilotdave 0]

If the wind is staying constant through the day, try to start your pattern at exactly the same spot on each jump. Notice where you are when you turn base. If you were short last time, force yourself to turn base a little earlier next time, even if it looks like you're gonna overshoot.

If the wind is changing, all bets are off, but if you land short every time regardless of the wind, just turn base a little before you think you really should. If you find yourself WAY high on final, you can always S-turn to bleed off some altitude.

Whats so bad at the far end of the landing area that you're trying to avoid?

Dave

[Phillbo 11]

Quote

Whats so bad at the far end of the landing area that you're trying to avoid?

Dave

Fuel tank and tarmack

It's not so much that I am trying to avoid anything. Just trying to nail my pattern and would rather land short than long. More room for error short than their is long so I figure it's better to error short and work forward.

I'll try forcing myself to turn base sooner and make sure I have room for S turns in case I need them.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

would rather land short than long. More room for error short than their is long so I figure it's better to error short.

I have a different mind set as I feel it's much easier to lose altitude than to preserve it and would thus rather be a little high on my target than to land short. But that's just me.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Phillbo 11]

Quote

I have a different mind set as I feel it's much easier to lose altitude than to preserve it and would thus rather be a little high on my target than to land short. But that's just me.

I'm sure I will feel that way at some point but S turn down low are still a bit spooky for me right now so I have a tendancy to want to avoid them while in the pattern right now.. Like I said, I'm sure that will change with experience.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I wouldn't want you to start performing things with your canopy that you are not used to. But there are a number of ways to lose altitude:

1) Small S-turns (not my preferred method).
2) Sink in under breaks (you need to return to full flight before flaring).
3) Use your front risers (double fronts).

But as always, practice any new canopy skills up high before you do them low to the ground.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Quote

Whats so bad at the far end of the landing area that you're trying to avoid?

Dave

Fuel tank and tarmack

Heh...after I landed on the tarmac during my AFF - and reached towards the ground in a proctive gesture (can you say "released the flare"? I knew you could...) - and got drug miserably on the tarmac (proof that I actually did a decent PLF: road rashed my ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, and hand...my shoulder lost a huge chunk of skin, though, from being drug by the chute)..

I know exactly what you mean. Almost every landing since has been short. (except two weekends ago...when there was basically NO wind! Which meant that I went long - but I actually steered myself parallel to the tarmac - ANYTHING not to hit that flippin' tarmac again!!)

but I'm so dreadfully afraid of low turns that even though I was coming in straight for the tetrahedran, I lifted my feet up thinking I was going to skim my bum on it rather than turn that low even a little bit. (didn't hit it...heh.)

I have a heck of a time with my landings, though...because I'm wingloaded so light (I'm 135 pounds flying a nav 220), that if there is ANY wind, it all but stops my forward motion...and if there's NO wind, then I seem to fly forever. At least I'm landing more of them (whenever I touch down).

we won't talk about the time that my left toggle had an issue...I could steer, but my left toggle, for some reason, I was BARELY able to pull it down...couldn't manage to flare the left and right sides at the same time. practiced in altitude to do an even flare...came in, put everything I had muscle-wise into the flare, but my left stopped halfway while my right went all the way. There was a definate "OH CRAP!" moment when I felt my body go sideways and pound into the ground sideways...bounced up and did a sort of barrel role in the desert.
OUCH! Scared the DZO, that's for sure. =)

*reads back* I'm really not as bad at landing as I'm making myself sound. *lol* If you look at my skydiving page...you'll see me landing several on my feet in a nice soft touchdown. (including the one NEXT TO the tarmac)

(Katherine...if you read this...will coolidge be doing jumps this weekend? Weather is supposed to be "extremely windy this weekend with temperatures plummetting"..? I was hoping to get 7-8 jumps this weekend but don't want to drive the hour each way for nothing..? and what plane do they have no? 2 weeks ago the otter was gone and the porter was back..?)

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

But there are a number of ways to lose altitude:

1) Small S-turns (not my preferred method).
2) Sink in under breaks (you need to return to full flight before flaring).
3) Use your front risers (double fronts).

Actually, double fronts can make you land longer, by shortening your time into the wind. The glide angle may remain about the same because although you are decreasing the angle of attack of the wing, the increased airspeed means the wing will produce more lift (which is proportional to the square of the airspeed).

Of course, increased airspeed means increased drag, too. And I don't know which of these things increases more / faster, and I bet it varies by canopy (and with different linesets).

I have found I can get a small "lengthening" of my final approach with double front risers, but I haven't had a shortening yet. However, this is a small and not very reliable effect. I have had much more success being a bit high and using half brakes high up on final (not too close to the ground, because the canopy has to dive a bit to return to full forward flight). I wouldn't want to do this lower than 250 feet, and even then only on a canopy I was familiar with.

Keep in mind I have 41 canopy flights more than none, so that's not a lot.
I once pulled my knees to my chest on final and experienced a considerable lengthening of final (in low or now wind). I don't know if this was because I significantly affected my frontal drag portion of my drag profile (this may not be likely with a Skymaster 290) or if I changed some shape in the canopy, which I wouldn't expect because front and rear risers come down to a single point on each side. Ehh, maybe the wind changed.
Oh, and most of my experience is on Student Skybarges, so I may have to unlearn, relearn, and re-evaluate all this for "real" canopies. Well, something to keep me busy.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

1) Small S-turns (not my preferred method).

yeah - very inconsiderate method and only suggested if ABSOLUTELY necessary (and no that doesn't include hitting the x

Quote

2) Sink in under breaks (you need to return to full flight before flaring).

Canopy myth. Of course if there is enough ground wind then the ground speed will be zero and that could be considered sinking in or if you are jumping an accuracy canopy. On a no-wind day (ie ground speed matches airspeed) you will over shoot every time by going onto brakes. Also you do NOT need to return to full flight to land the canopy in half brakes (especially if there isn't enough altitude) although landing canopy in half brakes is a skill unto itself. Easing up the brakes too much too low to the ground can have serious consequences.

Quote

3) Use your front risers (double fronts).

Not a good idea for low jump numbers.

A better idea would be to adjust the landing pattern. Take note of turning points and adjust them deeper or shorter throughout the day. Remember every time that you over or undershoot it indicates a poor pattern. So fix the problem proactively instead of reactively.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Phillbo 11]

Like I said above :

"It's not so much that I am trying to avoid anything. Just trying to nail my pattern and would rather land short than long. More room for error short than their is long so I figure it's better to error short and work forward. "

[Kdsosso 0]

This brings up a questions for me as well. I was told that when landing it's important to keep with the landing pattern set forth. When I'm under 300 feet or so and I see that I need to lose alt. to get to where I want to land, I am hesitant to do any s-turn for fear that I will ruin someone elses landing plan and possibly cause them to react to my inexperience. I always stay alert under canopy, however don't want to land next to someone, who is going to be grumpy at my "s-turns". Who has the right of way? I figure camera guys and swoopers always do?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Who has the right of way?

The lower canopy.

Quote

I figure camera guys and swoopers always do?

Hopefully people flying camera and swooping have certain avoidance skills under canopy that a lesser experienced canopy pilot would have (of course never assume anything under canopy). And swoopers need to know when it's okay to proceed with their swoop and when to abort it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

Just trying to nail my pattern and would rather land short than long. More room for error short than their is long so I figure it's better to error short and work forward. "

Yeah dude. Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought otherwise. I was just suggesting adjusting your pattern (slowly given your obstables) will help you get better with accuracy. For example do your normal pattern (take note of ground references on your 90 degree off downwind and your 90 onto final). After landing see how far you are from where you wanted to land, then adjust those 2 turns as appropriate to get closer to your mark. Remember those references will change with wind conditions, but you'll start building an awareness that will serve you well as you go on.

Small steps....it sounds like you're getting there.

Blue skies
Ian

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

On a no-wind day (ie ground speed matches airspeed) you will over shoot every time by going onto brakes.

Perhaps true if only a very small amount of brake is applied. If a significant amount of brakes are applied, then a canopy will have a steeper glide path than at full flight.

Students beware, this can hurt you if you stall or allow it to go back to full flight too close to the ground.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[towerrat 0]

why in the hell are you on your front risers with 41 jumps?

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[ianmdrennan 2]

Sorry but I discussed this at length with Scott Miller. It's a common misconception. Since it was brought to my attention I have noticed it on many occasions.

As I stated before though, wind can allow the pilot to achieve zero ground speed and in essence "sink in", but it's not really sinking, merely slowing the ground speed because sufficient airspeed exists to achieve this.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sundevil777 102]

If you bring your canopy 'somewhat' close to a stall, then you will have a glide path that is more vertical.

There must be a failure to communicate, I think.

edit:

Quote

wind can allow the pilot to achieve zero ground speed and in essence "sink in", but it's not really sinking, merely slowing the ground speed because sufficient airspeed exists to achieve this.

Ian, leave the aero stuff to us mechanical engineer types, I'll try not to diagnose problems with software (no offense intended)

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

There must be a failure to communicate, I think.

Probably - I openly admit that I am regurgitating info fed to myself by Scott. Makes sense to me what he was saying.

Quote

Ian, leave the aero stuff to us mechanical engineer types, I'll try not to diagnose problems with software (no offense intended)

None taken and I'm not even trying to pretend that I understand the aerodynamics involved on anything more than a basic level, but I tend to believe PD's information (seeing as they manufacture the product). Much like I'd expect them to believe me when I diagnosed their software
Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[alan 1]

Quote

On a no-wind day (ie ground speed matches airspeed) you will over shoot every time by going onto brakes.

The beginning of yet another canopy myth. Every canopy in neutral and static conditions has an L/D, or lift to drag ratio. The L/D is also often commonly referred to as the glide ratio. The ratio will vary from one canopy design to another. Let's say a typical sport canopy today has a glide ratio or L/D of about 4/1. That means in neutral flight under static conditions, the canopy will travel forward 4 feet for every foot it sinks.

Like most every aspect of areodynamics, if you change one element, it has an effect on another. In this case, going into brakes has the effect of changing the airfoil, which in turn has an effect on the L/D of the canopy. With most modern sport canopies in use today, a certain amount of brakes will have the effect of improving the L/D, but that can depend on the manufacturer and specific canopy model.

Once again, as with most other aspects of aerodynamics, there is a point where changing something too much will lead to a different result than what a similar change, but to a lesser degree, will yield. In this case, if you add too much brake, the L/D will will stop improving and decline, eventually to the point of a stall where the canopy ceases to fly.

You see, any airfoil will stall (cease to create enough lift to fly) when it exceeds its' critical angle of attack for any given airspeed. Deeper brakes give the airfoil more camber and a steeper angle of attack and thus more lift, but that lift comes with a cost. When you create more lift, you create more drag. More drag results in less forward speed and so at some point you add enough brakes to where the cost of the added lift is so much drag that the airfoil, canopy, can no longer generate enough lift to fly at the angle of attack and airspeed at that point. The angle of attack is simply the angle at which the relative wind hits the airfoil as measured along its' chord line.

Another option for effecting a change in your canopy's L/D would be to change the trim angle. This can be done in flight by pulling down on the rear risers, or even the front risers, depending on whether you want to increase or decrease the AOA. Again, too much, and you may distort the airfoil, resulting in poorer performance or loss of enough airspeed to create a stall, just like with too much brakes.

Yet another option is to combine inputs. Leave your brakes in the set position and then spread or pull down on the rear risers. The bottom line is, get to know your canopy. Have fun and experiment to see what works best on your canopy and gives you its' best glide ratio. A lot of what you will perceive will be "seat of the pants" and therefore pretty subjective, but if you play around enough, your impressions should become reasonably accurate. Then you'll buy a different canopy and you can learn how it will perform!

Why does what method you use vary from model to model and perhaps more noticeably from manufacturer to manufacturer? Because of variations in the design. Such things as the airfoil, trim angle of the canopy, planform, contruction, aspect ratio, and even brake design. I hope this helps.

alan

[ianmdrennan 2]

Thanks for taking the time to post that, it was pretty informative.

Still seems likes there's a lot of conflicting info out there (from very credible sources) that, unfortunately, makes it difficult for those of us who aren't involved in the process to make informed decisions.

It also sounds like from your description that there is no "one size fits all" because of various design impacts.

Thanks again.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

why in the hell are you on your front risers with 41 jumps?

I second that!
Sometimes a question turns into the "blind leading the blind" so to speak!

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

When I'm under 300 feet or so and I see that I need to lose alt. to get to where I want to land, I am hesitant to do any s-turn for fear that I will ruin someone elses landing plan and possibly cause them to react to my inexperience. I always stay alert under canopy, however don't want to land next to someone, who is going to be grumpy at my "s-turns". Who has the right of way? I figure camera guys and swoopers always do?

Try to avoid doing S turns if there are other canopies on the same level as you, and remember there may also be canopies above you doing a straight in approach, so you dont want to move under them if they have a faster desending canopy than yours. If you have to, hold half brakes for less forward speed, but remember to let it back to full flight before you have to do a full flare for landing. Your canopy flares MUCH better when its at full flight.
And remember, it's not necessarily the swooper or camera fliers that have the right of way, since he/she will probably be down before you, and they always land in the same spot so try to avoid that area if at all possible? The lower canopy always has the right of way though. And the tandems have their area they always land in, so try to avoid them if at all possible and give them ALOT of room to land since they have big slow canopies compared to a sport rig such as yours.
So, under 300ft you may want to just hold half brakes if your trying to land in a certain spot that you think your going to over fly, and keep looking all around you for other canopies.And if you make someone "grumpy?", just smile and say "sorry I didn't mean to cut you off".
I hope this helps.

Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com