jumperconway 0 #1 November 16, 2003 I think this should be posted here so that people can learn. After our friend spiraled in in Perris Valley with a stuck toggle from the Slinks, I changed my excess brake storage to the bottom of my toggle keeper instead of through the top of the riser. What I didn't know about was the fact that my new canopy has rather large cats eyes in the brake lines! When I stowed the excess on one jump today. I actually pulled the cat's eye over the grommet on the toggle! After a long spot, I flew in with the brakes stowed untill about 800'. When I went to unstow the brakes for final and landing. the front left leading edge, collapsed! I snapped quickly that for whatever reason, the left brake was still in a stowed situation. I could only fly staight by holding the right toggle down half way, Understand that I'm under a Xaos 27 cell 79' canopy loaded 2.4/1! I took a double wrap on my right toggle to even the toggles to brakes set mode and landed on rear risers. I flared the rears a little hard on landing and collapsed the canopy. I was happy to walk away from it. Having landed a stuck toggle before on a Xaos 80-21 helped me not make the same mistake but I never should have put myself in a situation below cutaway level to unstow my brakes. I hope all that read this learn from my mistkes an dont put yourself in the situation that I put myself today. Peace. Conway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 November 16, 2003 Since this is triple posted could one of the moderators move all the replies to a single fourm so its easy to follow this thread?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #3 November 16, 2003 Phree, I posted it triple so that it could be read by all that could learn from it. I thought I was going to pound at first! I don't think that it should be restricted to anyone! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chapsta 0 #4 November 16, 2003 way to handle a bad situation Conway! Glad to hear everything is OK. Thanks for posting this... ChapsCarpe diem Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #5 November 17, 2003 Thanks for the post. I have had a similar situation with brakes getting stuck, etc. I have found my favorite place for my toggles at all times is to be in my hot little hands. I don't think I would want to accept all of the what ifs by riding in until 800 feet to do a controllability check, Yikes! But good job with the recovery of the canopy. I can recall at least two jumps where I was sweating a little and thought WHEW! Glad I made it through that one ... Glad you got down okay and landed safely Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 November 17, 2003 I just want all the replies in one thread so its easy to follow along so I don't have to bounce between all 3 posts to read all the comments. How is that restricting it? I've had a similar situation but since I poped the brakes at 2500 I was able to figure it out and stand up the landing on rear risers.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INSANEDADDY 0 #7 November 17, 2003 Good Job Conway. I am glad it worked out for you. I have seen some guys at the DZ (no names mentioned) come flying in double fronts and not even un stow their brakes until half way through the swoop. I have always wondered what they would do in your situation. I guess they would be eating a nice dirt sandwich. You dont't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when.......You can only decide how you're going to live........NOW. -BASE 1605 Night BASE 227 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 November 17, 2003 Quote have seen some guys at the DZ (no names mentioned) come flying in double fonts and not even unstow their brakes until half way through the swoop That is dumb for a number of reasons. 1) Like you pointed out, if the brakes don't release it is better to find out when you have the altitude to do something about it. 2) Leaving the brakes stowed, then getting on the front risers is like hitting the brakes and gas at the same time, counter productive. More drag, shorter recovery arc, causes the canopy to 'buck', less speed, etc. 3) Not having the toggles in your hands while front risering to land creates the possibility of not find the toggles in time to flare. Suggest to them that they NOT do this. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #9 November 18, 2003 I thought that comment seemed odd Derek. Now, I know my Sabre is a square, and I don't know what a majority of other canopys would do in that situation, but my Sabre bucked like a madman, brakes unstowed, toggles in my hands, on front risers. I was getting tail deflection from a too short setting on the togles. I let them out about an inch and a half and ended up with nothing but smoothness. I just can't envision any canopy flying anywhere near smooth enough to swoop by using front risers with the brakes set.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #10 November 18, 2003 QuoteQuote have seen some guys at the DZ (no names mentioned) come flying in double fonts and not even unstow their brakes until half way through the swoop Derek, I think that this is a misperception on his part. The canopy would be bucking like a bitch if this were the case. I know of no one attempting this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dogwap 0 #11 November 18, 2003 QuoteAfter a long spot, I flew in with the brakes stowed untill about 800'. Does this really increase the distance you can travel? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I've sometimes put on a little rear riser to flatten my glide. But even that approach doesn't have me convinced. How bout it? ------------------------------------------------------- To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you, I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #12 November 19, 2003 QuoteDoes this really increase the distance you can travel? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I've sometimes put on a little rear riser to flatten my glide. But even that approach doesn't have me convinced. How bout it? For most 9-cell moderatly+ loaded canopies, releasing the brakes, pulling down a bit on the rear risers and tucking up as small as you can to reduce drag will give you the most distance from a long, upwind spot. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #13 November 19, 2003 Quote Does this really increase the distance you can travel? There are two key things you might want to do in a long spot situation -- have the highest glide ratio or stay aloft the longest amount of time. The two are related, but different. Depending on whether you're upwind or downwind of the target and the strength of the winds, staying in the equivalent of "brakes" might make far more sense than anything else.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites INSANEDADDY 0 #14 November 20, 2003 OK maybe I should have been a little more clear. What I did infact see was someone approaching under front risers. Gliding across the ground under rear risers. Then halfway through the glide unstow the brakes to finish off. So your saying there is no way possible for this maneuver? Maybe I was High that day........ You dont't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when.......You can only decide how you're going to live........NOW. -BASE 1605 Night BASE 227 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #15 November 20, 2003 QuoteOK maybe I should have been a little more clear. What I did infact see was someone approaching under front risers. Gliding across the ground under rear risers. Then halfway through the glide unstow the brakes to finish off. So your saying there is no way possible for this maneuver? What you probably saw, was someone, with their brakes released, turn with the front risers, plane out with the rear risers (keeping the toggles int heir hands the entire time), then release the rear risers and finish the flare with the toggles. The same manuever attempted with the brakes stowed and the toggles not in the jumpers hands would be extremely unusual and I have never heard of it being done. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Brains 2 #16 November 20, 2003 QuoteOK maybe I should have been a little more clear. What I did infact see was someone approaching under front risers. Gliding across the ground under rear risers. Then halfway through the glide unstow the brakes to finish off. So your saying there is no way possible for this maneuver? Maybe I was High that day........ [disclaimer]I am NOT a swooper.[/disclaimer] But i have seen the transition from rear risers to toggles mid swoop or towards the end and it CAN look like they are unstowing the breaks. Trust me, they are not. You seem to know conway, walk up to him at the dz and ask him why this wouldn't work. He is a great guy and would probably be happy to show you. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites INSANEDADDY 0 #17 November 20, 2003 As you can read from my post I am not a swooper. Maybe your right. It may have just seemed that way. When I first witnessed this I was kind of shocked that someone would do this. I dont go around starting shit at the DZ, thats why I did not tell anyone about it. He was not endangering my life or anyone else's. Thanks for the correction. You dont't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when.......You can only decide how you're going to live........NOW. -BASE 1605 Night BASE 227 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Brains 2 #18 November 20, 2003 No worries man. You got a lot of very talented canopy pilots at Spaceland. Ask questions when you see something that you don't understand. Most of the people i know that jump there are great people and would be more than willing to answer questions, that is how we all learn. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Dogwap 0 #11 November 18, 2003 QuoteAfter a long spot, I flew in with the brakes stowed untill about 800'. Does this really increase the distance you can travel? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I've sometimes put on a little rear riser to flatten my glide. But even that approach doesn't have me convinced. How bout it? ------------------------------------------------------- To those who say it’s a small world, let me tell you, I’ve seen the world, and it’s only getting bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 November 19, 2003 QuoteDoes this really increase the distance you can travel? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I've sometimes put on a little rear riser to flatten my glide. But even that approach doesn't have me convinced. How bout it? For most 9-cell moderatly+ loaded canopies, releasing the brakes, pulling down a bit on the rear risers and tucking up as small as you can to reduce drag will give you the most distance from a long, upwind spot. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #13 November 19, 2003 Quote Does this really increase the distance you can travel? There are two key things you might want to do in a long spot situation -- have the highest glide ratio or stay aloft the longest amount of time. The two are related, but different. Depending on whether you're upwind or downwind of the target and the strength of the winds, staying in the equivalent of "brakes" might make far more sense than anything else.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INSANEDADDY 0 #14 November 20, 2003 OK maybe I should have been a little more clear. What I did infact see was someone approaching under front risers. Gliding across the ground under rear risers. Then halfway through the glide unstow the brakes to finish off. So your saying there is no way possible for this maneuver? Maybe I was High that day........ You dont't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when.......You can only decide how you're going to live........NOW. -BASE 1605 Night BASE 227 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #15 November 20, 2003 QuoteOK maybe I should have been a little more clear. What I did infact see was someone approaching under front risers. Gliding across the ground under rear risers. Then halfway through the glide unstow the brakes to finish off. So your saying there is no way possible for this maneuver? What you probably saw, was someone, with their brakes released, turn with the front risers, plane out with the rear risers (keeping the toggles int heir hands the entire time), then release the rear risers and finish the flare with the toggles. The same manuever attempted with the brakes stowed and the toggles not in the jumpers hands would be extremely unusual and I have never heard of it being done. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #16 November 20, 2003 QuoteOK maybe I should have been a little more clear. What I did infact see was someone approaching under front risers. Gliding across the ground under rear risers. Then halfway through the glide unstow the brakes to finish off. So your saying there is no way possible for this maneuver? Maybe I was High that day........ [disclaimer]I am NOT a swooper.[/disclaimer] But i have seen the transition from rear risers to toggles mid swoop or towards the end and it CAN look like they are unstowing the breaks. Trust me, they are not. You seem to know conway, walk up to him at the dz and ask him why this wouldn't work. He is a great guy and would probably be happy to show you. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INSANEDADDY 0 #17 November 20, 2003 As you can read from my post I am not a swooper. Maybe your right. It may have just seemed that way. When I first witnessed this I was kind of shocked that someone would do this. I dont go around starting shit at the DZ, thats why I did not tell anyone about it. He was not endangering my life or anyone else's. Thanks for the correction. You dont't get to choose how you're going to die. Or when.......You can only decide how you're going to live........NOW. -BASE 1605 Night BASE 227 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #18 November 20, 2003 No worries man. You got a lot of very talented canopy pilots at Spaceland. Ask questions when you see something that you don't understand. Most of the people i know that jump there are great people and would be more than willing to answer questions, that is how we all learn. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
