Safer sub-terminal deployments question/pondering

[jerry81 10]

Well, I haven't jumped in three weeks, which means my every other thought is about skydiving (that, and I just tried to flag down a chopper that's been circling above my house for the last hour, which probably means I'm losing it).
A day ago, I read a reply by Sky1 that made me think about hop&pops and really low jumps and how one should prepare their equipment for them. So I'd like to know if I'm right in assuming this:

-riser covers are better left open on such jumps.(?) (Brought up by Skymonkey in Superbandz thread) One reference for this would be short-delay base jumps. Also, my personal opinion, based on the tightness of said covers on my Voodoo, is that I'm much more likely to get a normal, on-heading sub-terminal deployment if I leave them open.
-main pin cover flap also better left open. (?)This is an advice I received after describing my near-cutaway on a hop&pop where I got a pc in tow, several linetwists and a nice view of the sky as my canopy spun towards the ground. (got it flying straight and kicked out before 1500', but it was unpleasant nonetheless.)
-slider grommets not pushed all the way to the stops.(?) I'd think about this only on a low jump, when a nice snivel is definitely unwanted. Like if I manage to find a guy with a balloon willing to drop me from 2000' for free, or actually hitch a ride on that helicopter, but they don't have time to climb all the way to 3k. (Both cases, I'd probably go for it )

Most of the time, I don't have a problem with pulling a bit lower to get sufficient speed, but sometimes a hop&pop needs to be exactly that. I've already learned a few tricks that make my openings slower, now I'm interested in learning those that make it faster, but still reliable. (I'm flying a moderately loaded elliptical) Please comment on my assumptions and feel free to add to them or make corrections as you see fit.

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[wzettler 0]

I probably wouldn't do any of those things. i would think that the main pin flap thing and the riser cover thing would make a minimal difference even into a dead-air exit. if you are pruposefully going to do a low-altitude (sub-2000ft) skydive then maybe you want BASE training and gear. That equipment is meant to open quicker. I do think that a bigger pilot chute would make a difference in getting the main open quicker on a low skydive.
With all that said, i have done relatively low hop-n-pops (below 3000ft from a helicopter) and just delayed a bit longer than a hop-n-pop from a little higher altitude. Planes shouldn't be a problem because the relative wind (i would think) would be enough to get you deployed. but thats just my $0.02...

I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them.

[marks 0]

if im exiting at 2000 ft i leave the riser covers open. also i leave the main pin flap open "sometimes" depends on the plane. if you know you going low before you pack then leave the nose exposed and clover the slider while pulling it tawords the tail. also dont really roll the tail to contain the nose just fild the fabric over once....

although ive exited from 2000 ft without doing any of this...

most of this will help it open a little faster,.. but also it will help keep the bag from spinnning when the pilot chute pulls out the bag.. creating line twist...

mostly just lets the canopy get out of the bag quicker..

[jerry81 10]

Well, the plane I do most of my low-altitude jumps from is an Antonov 2...and I read somewhere that a low-speed stall is almost impossible on that thing. I've done so many nearly dead air exits from it that I must say I'm beginning to believe that.

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[velo90 0]

seems like a lot of thought.... exactly how low are you thinking of exiting?

Last year I did a Demo jump. Cloud base was at about 1300 ft. The only preperation for my gear was to repack my Vengeance with the slider pushed as far back as possible to the tail. I hoped it would open faster this way.

We decided to fly out in the Cessna 182 to have a look and see if we could find enough height to exit. Don't we have silly idea's
We flew over the landing area at 1400ft MSL and decided if we set up the drop run right we could climb the extra height we needed on the run in and exit in the cloud.
We set up the drop run and told the pilot CLIMB!
Well you can guess how well the beaten up old C182 climbed. It managed an amazing 200ft before someone shouted exit. My alti read something ridiculous in meters, the planes alti read 1600ft MSL.
The landing area was 250 ft MSL which works out to 1350ft AGL!
I was the second to go, the well known lemming effect.
The 3rd decided a bit of freefall was the order of the day and I guess he had an open canopy at 700ft.

After this jump someone mentioned whether for such jumps we should leave the cypres switched off.
In this case it did not matter as we never ascended to the height needed to activate it.

All landed safely and hit the target.

In the end the best decision is not to jump out at such low altitudes. Morden sports gear is not designed for these types of jumps.
Messing about with riser covers, pin covers etc, to go out low tells me one should not be exiting so low.

If one really wants a low jump, then get into BASE.

[mjosparky 4]

You can exit at 2000 feet with you gear in a normal configuration. If not there is something wrong with you gear. You normally leave the plane with 80/100 mph speed.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 3,110]

>-riser covers are better left open on such jumps.

Not too much of an issue either way. It takes a seriously tight riser cover to interfere with any opening, so if you have such riser covers you might open them. If you do this ensure your toggles and spare-line stow on your riser are in very good shape; a blown-off toggle or spare brake line whipping around can easily cause a mal.

>-main pin cover flap also better left open.

I'd recommend you NOT do this. The most dangerous time for a premature deployment is getting out the door; that's also the time you're likely to snag something (like your bridle, which is now exposed.) Most rigs have main pin covers that do little to nothing to interfere with openings.

>-slider grommets not pushed all the way to the stops.(?)

On anything other than a very short balloon delay, you run a risk of destroying the canopy. Skydiving canopies are not designed to be partially reefed, and maintaining exactly 2 inches of distance (for example) is very difficult while packing.

[jerry81 10]

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You normally leave the plane with 80/100 mph speed.
Sparky

As I already said, An-2 exits can come very close to balloon or chopper jumps. I've already had one close call that might have been prevented by doing one of the things I mentioned, or perhaps something else I didn't think of. (And before someone brings it up, the pc was fully cocked on that jump.)
Other than that, keep the replies coming.

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[WayneRATS 0]

get your mate to "static line" you out the door keeping hold of your pc hackey till your canopys open

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Can You Ere Me Now?

[davelepka 4]

First, do not have anyone do anything to your pilot chute next to an open door.
That said, ask the pilot to speed up the jump run. Also, don't come off the plane big, have your self in a fast falling configuration right out of the door, so whatever delay you take gives you the max airspeed. When you deploy, hold that position, toss the pc, and go back to that position untill your canopy is out of the bag. This will give you the fastest deployments for a given airspeed and delay.
This will also help to lower the altitude you feel comfortable exiting with a main canopy deployment. In the case of an aircraft emergency, this will give you a better chance of using your main instead of going right to your reserve (your last canopy).

Choosing a minnimum altitude at which to use your main is a personal desicion. You may be in violation of the FAA or a BSR depending on your choice.

[relyon 0]

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-riser covers

I'd open them. It won't make any noticeable difference in the deployment speed, but it will prevent one riser from being released before the other (which spins the bag resulting in low line twists and likely an off heading).

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-main pin cover flap

I wouldn't do this. Too much of a snag hazard on exit with little or no benefit.

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-slider grommets

Way too unpredictable.

One thing you might consider is a pullout system. There is a noticeable difference in sub-terminal deployment speeds between BOCs and pullouts.

Bob

[diablopilot 2]

IMO, if any of the things you mentined cause a mal on a sub terminal deloyment, then one or both of the following things may be true:

1) Your container, main, reserve, or both are packed improperly.

2) Your container is poorly engineered.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wrightskyguy 1]

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IMO, if any of the things you mentined cause a mal on a sub terminal deloyment, then one or both of the following things may be true:

1) Your container, main, reserve, or both are packed improperly.

2) Your container is poorly engineered.

I concur. If you have to do something extra to make your rig open safely on a sub-terminal deployment, then you need a new rig. What happens when you have an A/C emergency and have to get out low?, people behind you probably won't be too keen on the idea of waiting for someone to open thier riser covers and container flap.

Jump nice

John Wright

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[jsaxton 0]

Don't forget to turn your cypress off

[mjosparky 4]

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Don't forget to turn your cypress off

Why would you turn you cypress off?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[michaelflying 0]

no throtle back helps use the prop blast.

www.skydivekzn.co.za

[jsaxton 0]

In case you hummmmm it!

[jerry81 10]

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In case you hummmmm it!

no Cypres=no problem

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[velo90 0]

IMH if your are going fast enough and are low enough for cypres to fire then is should fire.
If you hop n' pop you will never reach cypres firing speed unless something goes wrong (like total mal?).
Would you not prefer to have your cypres activated in this case?

[jsaxton 0]

if you're gonna humm it

[jumperconway 0]

I believe that the cypress hasn't armed itself below 2 grand. so eccentially it's off.

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]What happens when you have an A/C emergency and have to get out low[/QUOTE]

bail on reserve.

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[hookitt 1]

Leave it all closed.

The main flap does not need to be pushed out of the way to have the pin pulled.

Riser covers can stay shut too.

By the way, even on zero second delay go and throw, I don't open the riser covers on my BASE rigs. There's no way it would hang up. It's different gear so try not to compare the 2.

How did the PC in tow occur? A The pin on a Voodoo will pull very easily with the pin cover closed. I would venture to guess it was not towing by the pin.

One possibility on a voodoo or talon is accidently pushing the bridle over the corner of the stiffener on the bottom flap.

Suggestions.. just leave the covers closed and pack normally. Bridle routing is key.

I've done a 2 second delay out of a balloon using a Talon with a stock 26 inch f-111 pilot chute. The canopy was a stiletto 120. It seemed like a SLOW opening but It was completely open 500 feet below the balloon.

Study your equipment and see if you can create a PC in tow on the ground. If the pin pulls, the rest of the rig will at least do something :)

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[jerry81 10]

The pc in tow happened on a Wings and the closed pin cover was suggested as a possible reason.
As for my Voodoo, pulling the bag out with the bridle showed that a line would sometimes snag momentarily on one stiffener corner (had a rigger look it over and do a minor fix) and that the riser covers don't open very easily. As I said, I haven't jumped it yet (I'm beginning to suspect there's a curse on it), so I don't know if this affects "real" openings. (Very likely it doesn't, but I have time to make up bad situations)

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[rigging65 0]

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The pc in tow happened on a Wings and the closed pin cover was suggested as a possible reason.

I highly doubt that. There have been a few cases on Rigging Innovation rigs (Talon II and Voodoo both) of a bridle hanging up on the bottom flap's corner when it was pushed too deeply (as it sounds like happened on your Voodoo), but I've never heard of it happening on a pin flap.

For those not familiar with the problem on a Talon/Voodoo, the reason it hung up is that there was pressure from on top (that is, the side flap being closed over the bottom flap) which kept the bottom flap from flexing and letting the bridle go free. Since there is nothing clamping down on the pin protector flap, I'm not sure how you would hang up on it...it would simply flex and the bridle would slip loose.

Of course, stranger things have happened...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."