ChileRelleno 0 #1 November 28, 2003 I know all possibilities are not listed ( for you smartasses) OK, heres the deal. The other day I got stupid and went low. I pulled at 1500' was open at 800', right as my main was completing deployment my Cypres fired and I was left with a RPC, bridle and Catapult RPC(secondary RPC) in tow. The reserve D-bag was not extracted, the reserve canopy did not deploy. The reserve D-bag was held in place by closed corners(pockets) formed by the reserve side flaps and material coming up from the main side flaps. My forward speed under canopy was pretty good, full flight with a 10-15mph tailwind. Witness stated that RPC's and bridle were at full extension but not alot of drag(like a kite tail). Harness/container - Reflex Main canopy - Hornet 210 @ 1.19.1 Reserve canopy - Tempo 210 @ 1.19.1 AAD - CYPRES expert The main point of concern is that a canopy transfer has always been one of my emergency gameplans, for instance, in the event of a flying yet unlandable damaged main canopy ect... My question far all of you out there (particularly you riggers and gear manufacturers) is should the reserve have deployed? Yes? No? and your reasons why. I'm looking for all the input and information I can get on this incident. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #2 November 28, 2003 Quotebut here are some for some reserve PC's at lower speeds: racer RPC drag at 35 mph: 18 lbs reflex RPC drag at 35 mph: 15 lbs reflex RPC and CPC drag at 35 mph: 22 lbs 36" F111 PC drag at 35 mph: 15 lbs 46" zero-P PC drag at 35 mph: 27 lbs (note: RPC and CPC refer to reserve pilot chute and catapult pilot chute) found this from Billvon while searching **reflex RPC drag at 35 mph: 15 lbs** **reflex RPC and CPC drag at 35 mph: 22 lbs** Seems to me like if these are correct that the reserve should have been extracted and begun deployment??? ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #3 November 28, 2003 QuoteMy forward speed under canopy was pretty good, full flight with a 10-15mph tailwind. I would not have though the wind (tail or head) would make any difference. As for wether it sould have deployed, I will let someone with more knowledge than me answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #4 November 28, 2003 If full flight in zero wind = 20mph, then headwind @ 10mph = 10mph and tailwind @ 10mph = 30mph airspeed. This airspeed will affect the amount of drag a pilot chute produces. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #5 November 28, 2003 QuoteIf full flight in zero wind = 20mph, then headwind @ 10mph = 10mph and tailwind @ 10mph = 30mph airspeed. This airspeed will affect the amount of drag a pilot chute produces. If your full flight speed in 0 wind is 20mph, then your airspeed will always be 20mph. Your groud speed will change, but not your airspeed.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 November 28, 2003 No - your canopy's airspeed is constant when in level flight. Your canopy has 20mph forward speed, if you fly with wind of 10mph you will still have a forward air speed of 20mph, just you'll be covering the ground at 30mph. Imagine your canopy in a "column" of air. The "column" itself moving at 10mph, and you are moving at 20mph within the column. Your ground speed increases but your air speed (speed relative to the air through which you are moving) is still 20mph. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #7 November 28, 2003 QuoteIf full flight in zero wind = 20mph, then headwind @ 10mph = 10mph and tailwind @ 10mph = 30mph airspeed. There are about a zillion threads on here explaining the difference between airspeed and groundspeed. You're calculating groundspeed but the drag your p/c will produce is proportional to your airspeed. I'm suprised that your reserve didn't get pulled out or fall out but I can't decide whether it should have. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #8 November 28, 2003 QuoteI'm suprised that your reserve didn't get pulled I'm just a layman jumper (ie non-rigger) but I'm not surprissed. I've seen several cases of this either on video, and a once or twice in person.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #9 November 28, 2003 My plan, if in your situation, is to grab the reserve bridle, get a grip on the bridle as close to the PC as possible, then pull out the freebag and hold it with my legs.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 November 28, 2003 Quote If full flight in zero wind = 20mph, then headwind @ 10mph = 10mph and tailwind @ 10mph = 30mph airspeed. This airspeed will affect the amount of drag a pilot chute produces. Full flight = approx. 20 mph. A head wind does not affect your airspeed, only your ground speed. For example; full flight = approx. 20 mph. 30 mph headwind. The canopy is not flying backwards through the air at 10 mph. It is still flying through the air at approx. 20-mph, but its ground speed is negative 10 mph. Quote**reflex RPC drag at 35 mph: 15 lbs** **reflex RPC and CPC drag at 35 mph: 22 lbs** Seems to me like if these are correct that the reserve should have been extracted and begun deployment??? Curious where you got the drag numbers? If the drag forces/airspeed graph was linear (it’s not), then at 20 mph the force generated by both PC’s would be 12.6 lbs. Then there is the issue of how much drag the secondary PC would produce directly behind you. This is not much force. Modern containers hold the reserve free bag snuggly to prevent an out-of-sequence deployment. If the free bag leaves before the PC and then the PC goes through the lines, the reserve can bag lock. This has happened at least once. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #11 November 28, 2003 QuoteCurious where you got the drag numbers? Quote While researching the threads for more info I found a post from Billvon regarding RPC size with these numbers. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #12 November 28, 2003 Canopy transfers are extremely rare and should'nt really be in anyones "tool box" simply since there are better solutions to the situations that might actually warrent one. The drag on the PC is about 10-12 pounds at canopy flight speeds (I think everyone else covered why the speed is only about 20 mph and not "faster") and the weight of a Tempo 210 is 9.5 pounds accourding to the charts I've got. Couple that with the fact your reserve PC was not in clean air and was not pulling with its full force it does not surprize me that the drag was not enough to pull it from the container. It sounds like the entire system worked exactly as it should have. I see this usually once a year or so and the systems are designed properly.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #13 November 28, 2003 The main point of concern is that a canopy transfer has always been one of my emergency gameplans, for instance, in the event of a flying yet unlandable damaged main canopy ect.... Initiating a two square out situation doesn't seem like a viable solution to me. Why not cut-away and pull the reserve? Transfers worked when we had round reserves, but I would not do one now. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChileRelleno 0 #14 November 28, 2003 QuoteWhy not cut-away and pull the reserve? If I'm already low with a pile of crap above my head i.e. too low to cut away and pull my reserve. Then I'd rather try for two piles of crap with the potential to transfer one to another. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #15 November 28, 2003 QuoteIf I'm already low with a pile of crap above my head i.e. too low to cut away and pull my reserve. Then I'd rather try for two piles of crap with the potential to transfer one to another. If the main was very bad, you would probably have enough speed/fall rate to get the reserve to inflate. It is a very tricky manuever that could make things worse. There are situations where it could make things better too. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,110 #16 November 28, 2003 >Curious where you got the drag numbers? From a fish scale attached to a long boom sticking out of the sunroof of a car. I drove down the road at 35mph and took readings; actually I went both ways and averaged the drag numbers to remove the effect of wind. It worked well until one of my BASE PC's broke the boom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #17 November 28, 2003 Very cool. I wasn't denying the numbers, just curious where they came from and if there was any more. Have you measured any other PC's this way? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PhreeZone 20 #12 November 28, 2003 Canopy transfers are extremely rare and should'nt really be in anyones "tool box" simply since there are better solutions to the situations that might actually warrent one. The drag on the PC is about 10-12 pounds at canopy flight speeds (I think everyone else covered why the speed is only about 20 mph and not "faster") and the weight of a Tempo 210 is 9.5 pounds accourding to the charts I've got. Couple that with the fact your reserve PC was not in clean air and was not pulling with its full force it does not surprize me that the drag was not enough to pull it from the container. It sounds like the entire system worked exactly as it should have. I see this usually once a year or so and the systems are designed properly.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #13 November 28, 2003 The main point of concern is that a canopy transfer has always been one of my emergency gameplans, for instance, in the event of a flying yet unlandable damaged main canopy ect.... Initiating a two square out situation doesn't seem like a viable solution to me. Why not cut-away and pull the reserve? Transfers worked when we had round reserves, but I would not do one now. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #14 November 28, 2003 QuoteWhy not cut-away and pull the reserve? If I'm already low with a pile of crap above my head i.e. too low to cut away and pull my reserve. Then I'd rather try for two piles of crap with the potential to transfer one to another. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #15 November 28, 2003 QuoteIf I'm already low with a pile of crap above my head i.e. too low to cut away and pull my reserve. Then I'd rather try for two piles of crap with the potential to transfer one to another. If the main was very bad, you would probably have enough speed/fall rate to get the reserve to inflate. It is a very tricky manuever that could make things worse. There are situations where it could make things better too. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #16 November 28, 2003 >Curious where you got the drag numbers? From a fish scale attached to a long boom sticking out of the sunroof of a car. I drove down the road at 35mph and took readings; actually I went both ways and averaged the drag numbers to remove the effect of wind. It worked well until one of my BASE PC's broke the boom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #17 November 28, 2003 Very cool. I wasn't denying the numbers, just curious where they came from and if there was any more. Have you measured any other PC's this way? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
