The "Cool Factor" and Safety

[peek 21]

The "Cool Factor" and Safety

I don't know who originated this expression, but it seems to be related a lot to skydiving now.

I don't know how many times I have seen skydivers do things that are _very obviously_ less safe than an alternative because they think it is not "cool" or not stylish to do the former. For example:

I find it disturbing that Performance Designs even needs to issue: "Control Systems Malfunctions Information Sheet", which is listed on this web site's main page.

Who determined that it was "cool" to put the excess steering line in the riser/link area? Why would anyone want to do this? Since there were ram-air canopies there have been methods to store excess steering line! (Ok, so you are convined Velcro is "evil"? Then devise another method.)

I remember when it was "cool" to just leave the excess steering line hanging, but now since someone has died I guess some people are re-thinking this. Well, duh!

One very experienced jumper I know showed me on the ground how the riser cover of his rig pulled out the excess steering line on his canopy. He _showed me this_. It caused a spinning canopy a number of times, yet he did nothing to correct the problem. He waited until the riser manufacturer came up with the next generation "cool" riser and bought it. WTF? And this is a smart guy and a guy that can sew, and install something to correct the problem.

It's kind of crazy, I tell people to fix something that I see _obviously_ "less safe" (than an alternative) and they ignore me. Is it an age thing? Am I just totally without "cool"?

I pretty much predicted (at least to myself, because no one else would listen) that someone would eventually be hurt or die because of steering line left unstowed.

What do we need to do to get people to listen?

Is the desire to be "cool" so incredibly powerful that it is worth ignoring _obvious_ dangers? Or are those dangers not obvious? If they are not, doesn't having an experienced jumper telling you that these are true dangers mean anything? Or do you only take advice from a "cool" source?

[skybrat68 0]

I don't think what anyone does with the excess line is a matter of being cool or not being cool. I think that it's definitely something being researched right now because people are wanting to know the proper (not cool or uncool) way to stow the excess line to stay safe. Others may have questioned what to do with it before but with no better suggestions, who knew?

[Hooknswoop 19]

It is a matter of risk vs. reward.

Risk:

As a recent newer jumper said “ When you're a student, you don't even know what you don't know ”. Newer jumpers tend to underestimate the risk and over estimate their abilities.

Reward:

I think the attraction of the “cool” factor for up and coming is huge for a lot of people. It is difficult for a 2000 jump skydiver to identify with the 50-jump skydiver that wants so badly to be seen as cool by their peers. To achieve ‘coolness’ is a big reward to them.

They can be willing to take huge risks (though they don’t perceive the risk as high as it is) in order to achieve the reward of being cool. In reality the risks are large and the reward small.

Derek

[weegegirl 2]

Though I value the point you are trying to make... and by your profile, we have a lot to learn from you... I've never thought of someone as "cool" because of the way they stowed their lines.

[FrogNog 1]

I agree with your overall thrust, but I think there's a second side to it.

At the end of they day / jump, it's not just about looking cool. It's about having fun, and that's made up of more than just dressing sharp and doing stupid stuff that makes the girliez swoon.

We do things in skydiving that we think are fun, and they all carry risks. The most basic one is getting into a plane, jumping out, falling toward Earth at an almost guaranteed fatal rate, then deploying a parachute or two with less than half (or sometimes a quarter) of a minute of freefall time left before cratering, then trying to get everything into ship shape to land soft enough to do it again.

From there most of the modifications to this plan carry additional overall risk. (Perhaps a few of them carry additional specific risk in some areas and less specific risk in other area, but I believe in general we can say things get riskier from here.) And since we're already skydivers, we're already kinda in the habit of weighing risks against pleasures.

Fun: jumping without a helmet on. Risk: noggin damage which at worst could be summarily or contributorily fatal.

Fun: jumping nekkid. Risk: sliding, off, and hazard landings are much higher stakes. (You have more "skin in the game", if you will. ;)

Fun: Mr. Bill. Risk: pretty much everything can go wrong. I saw video last week of a Mr. Bill where the pilot chute went completely AROUND the pair of jumpers! Thankfully one of them was SuperBen, so he just fixed it.

Fun: swooping. Risk: going that fast close to the ground can mess you up if you lose control.

Fun: birdman. Risk: handling malfunctions in a straightjacket with wings is harder.

Fun: costume jumps. Risk: vision, handle findability / reachability, range of motion, etc.. Plus neck issues if the costume is really just a hangover and a pumpkin on yer head.

Fun: big-ways. Risk: collisions.

Fun: free-flying. Risk: premature deployments at higher speed than normal, collisions, loss of altitude awareness.

Fun: CRW. Risk: Lightning 218 burial shroud.

Fun: water jumps. Risk: drowning. And in some locales, large carnivorous animals.

Fun: night jumps. Risk: most of the basic risks of skydiving, but like doing them with your eyes and the pilot's eyes closed.

Fun: high altitude jumps. Risk: hypoxia, premature deployment at higher speeds than normal, increased risk of off landings.

Fun: base jumps. Risk: less time, more hazards.

Fun: 4-way / 8-way for competition, USPA achievement awards, or just fun. Risk: collisions, loss of altitude awareness, semi-intentionally sucking it down.

In all these situations there's some cool factor. (Except maybe CRW. ) But there's also a fun factor, an internal personal enjoyment (yeah, that sounds real good) that in many cases is more important than the cool.

[edited to add "a minute of" near the top.]

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Pull.

[jverley 1]

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Fun: 4-way / 8-way for competition

Risk: Income to live or retire on

John
Arizona Hiking Trails

[ZoneRat 0]

That's just the way I was taught to stow it. Had no idea how cool I was or my friends were that showed me to do it that way.

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I'm trying to think of circumstances where the cool factor commonly overtakes safety:

Going on big-ways/ formation loads before your ready*
Downsizing canopies too quickly*
Freeflying in not so freefly friendly rigs*.
"Safety meetings" may or may not factor in for some
Attempting high performance landings before you're ready.
Wearing a camera before you're ready.
Wingsuit before you're ready
Jumping with a massive hangover*
Low-pull contests
Big-way freefly/ hybrid jumps before you're ready*
Some very cool helmets offer arguable actual protection or jumping with silly hats*
Jumping in high or gusty winds*
Jumping hurt*
Specialty dives (hoop dives/ tracking dives etc) before you're ready*

* These are things that I've done at least once before I was really ready to do them. (Edited to add: What Hoop said. I was underestimating the risks and over estimating my abilities).


hmm... what am I forgetting...

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[LouDiamond 1]

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Fun: birdman. Risk: handling malfunctions in a straightjacket with wings is harder.

That statement is false. There is nothing about a wingsuit that hampers a wearer in any way from reaching his/her cutaway or reserve handle. Emergency procedures do not change, they are the same as a normal skydive and the suit does not hamper you from putting a good chute above you.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[jerry81 10]

According to this, I'm the coolest fuck around!

Going on big-ways/ formation loads before your ready...my first rw jump was a 10-way speedstar attempt.
Downsizing canopies too quickly...1.6 on an elliptical at 200 jumps? check!
Freeflying in not so freefly friendly rigs...I think the Vector 2 I used to fly qualifies.
"Safety meetings" may or may not factor in for some...ummm, who can tell for sure
Attempting high performance landings before you're ready...people who don't know me very well could certainly say so.
Wearing a camera before you're ready...I flew camera at 150 jumps at the ff nationals. So check this as well.
Wingsuit before you're ready...define ready. According to the BM site, I should have had a very good instructor for that ws jump that I made.
Jumping with a massive hangover...ugh, that certainly wasn't pleasant.
Low-pull contests...does pulling low just for the joy of groundrush count?
Big-way freefly/ hybrid jumps before you're ready...well, there was this one 4-way zoom fest that had a tube thrown in for good measure.
Some very cool helmets offer arguable actual protection or jumping with silly hats...how about no helmet at all?
Jumping in high or gusty winds...like on a demo and then landing in a parking lot? check!
Jumping hurt...like when you dislocate your knee on exit and go back up for more. yup!
Specialty dives (hoop dives/ tracking dives etc) before you're ready...but I was ready! really!

Point is, most of those things I did because I felt the reward outweighs the risk. (OK, so some I did were just stupid) But the reward was rarely about looking cool. I mean, most of that stuff I did purely for my own pleasure. I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk as much if it was just to look cool.

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[ZoneRat 0]

Of course it's not to "Look" cool. I'm 38 years old. I'm well past giving a shit about looking cool. Who isn't? It's because those things "are" cool. And, even with a paltry 400 jumps I'm already looking back thinking "jeesh... I don't know that I'd a done that knowing what I know now..."

When I do digress into high school mode and want to "Look cool" I do it as most do.... by stowing my excess break lines all wacky.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[sammer 0]

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When I do digress into high school mode and want to "Look cool" I do it as most do.... by stowing my excess break lines all wacky.

Me too....just make sure you leave the excess hanging out of your rig in plain sight. That way it will be really obvious how cool you are, and everyone will want to jump with you

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[ZoneRat 0]

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When I do digress into high school mode and want to "Look cool" I do it as most do.... by stowing my excess break lines all wacky.

Me too....just make sure you leave the excess hanging out of your rig in plain sight. That way it will be really obvious how cool you are, and everyone will want to jump with you

They'll want to jump with you if, for no other reason, it'd be "cool" to grab an exposed line and fly off with it...

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[FrogNog 1]

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Fun: birdman. Risk: handling malfunctions in a straightjacket with wings is harder.

That statement is false. There is nothing about a wingsuit that hampers a wearer in any way from reaching his/her cutaway or reserve handle. Emergency procedures do not change, they are the same as a normal skydive and the suit does not hamper you from putting a good chute above you.

I guess I was thinking about more exotic, and probably less highly-recommended, emergency procedures like anything involving hands up to the risers right away.

I retract my statement that wingsuits cause difficulties doing EPs and I seek to replace it with one that jumping wingsuits carries risk of collision and body-position-related deployment ickies. These are almost wholely jumper-governed so I'm not saying wingsuits are bad, I'm saying I think flying a wingsuit has added elements of risk over doing a vanilla solo belly skydive.

Goodness knows I want to fly a wingsuit BAD. (But I'm going to wait until next spring when I get my rig and some decent weather and start jumping my brains out to get the experience prerequisite.)

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Pull.

[fudd 0]

This reminds me of one of Bill Booths posts about safety and fashion

Recomended reading for everyone.

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[sducoach 0]

Gary,

Until I saw your new picture I thought you were "cool", now I have to reconsider.................

Serious.
I don't think the point is how or where you stow your lines, it's if you listen to experience or ignore it to be "cool". I believe that's Gary's point.

Products will improve through the "problems" that consumers experience. We hope the problems are not fatal however, sometimes they are. Frognog's post can be summed up as "risk management". The question is how well do you manage your risk exposure and do you go beyond your "normal" comfort level just to avoid criticism or being teased?

Simple things can kill. Being "cool" is knowing when to say no.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[sducoach 0]

Weegegirl,

Gary is our Regional Director here in the MidWest and we ALL can learn a lot from him. I believe you missed the point. I just hope many newer skydivers don't.

Know when to say no!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[peek 21]

OK, I was being too obtuse. Sometimes I do that to try to get people to think and to get opinions, but I guess when people have a limited time to read things on dz.com, they think I am speaking specifically. Here it is in a more specific comment.

It bothered me as soon as I saw that people were not stowing their excess brake line. This started happening when HP canopies got popular because the excess was not as long as on MP canopies.

I knew something was going to happen to someone eventually. I told scores of people that it wasn't a good idea. (And I think it is obvious to most people that it is a snag hazard.)

They said, "Oh, it will be alright.", and laughed. Then, when some problems started showing up, people started reconsidering, and started stowing it in the riser/link area. Again I started saying "Why not just stow it securely in something designed for that purpose?".

It seemed like people did not want to do the obvious, and that is to stow it like it was stowed back when ram-air canopies were developed.

There are a number of ways to do this, but these are not "new" ways, and I think that many people think that anything not developed recently is not "cool", no matter how effective.

To comment on Skybrat68's comment about "research is being done now..". It need not be done. It was done a long time ago.

[FrogNog 1]

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Again I started saying "Why not just stow it securely in something designed for that purpose?".

I haven't seen people stowing excess steering line in scary ways because it's cool, I see them storing it in scary ways because they're lazy.

Of course, when I get a rig I'll learn firsthand how hard it is to keep velcro up to date, or get excess steering line storage devices added to my risers.

Hmm. On second thought, maybe the reason they're OK with the scary method is because they're too cool to be bothered with it. Ehh, not my deal. Even if they are my friends. I mention my concern once and if my base-jumping D-license years-in-the-sport napkin-flying way-more-experienced-than-me pal says the imperfection of the steering line storage does not worry his pretty little head, then I let it go.

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Pull.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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The "Cool Factor" and Safety
I don't know how many times I have seen skydivers do things that are _very obviously_ less safe than an alternative because they think it is not "cool" or not stylish to do the former.

Is the desire to be "cool" so incredibly powerful that it is worth ignoring _obvious_ dangers? Or are those dangers not obvious? If they are not, doesn't having an experienced jumper telling you that these are true dangers mean anything? Or do you only take advice from a "cool" source?

Peer Pressure and Being Cool

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[WrongWay 0]

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I've never thought of someone as "cool" because of the way they stowed their lines.

Ditto to that one. I thought this thread was gonna be about something like students jumping tiny elliptical canopies at 30 jumps....

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[skybrat68 0]

"It seemed like people did not want to do the obvious, and that is to stow it like it was stowed back when ram-air canopies were developed."
__________________________________________________

What is the obvious way to stow the excess line? I don't have line retainers on my risers. Obviously I wasn't jumping when ram-air canopies were first developed. I find the suggestion in PD's report in reference to using a rubber band pretty handy. Personally, I run the extra line down the side of the reserve tray. Once, when I had even fewer jumps than I do now, I caught my hand on the loop (without incident) and taught myself a very valuable lesson about paying attention. Since then, the excess line stow has been a non issue for me. I think the research PD has done was necessary for people that haven't been in the sport as long as others.

[sundevil777 102]

Years ago, the nose of the toggle did not get tucked away in a keeper as it is commonly done now (there were no keepers).

S-folding the excess and stowing it in a band is not as secure as using the nose & keeper of the toggle, in my opinion.

Keeping the excess above the region where you grab the toggle is a very good thing, in my opinion.

If you are sure you're slinks will not rotate, because they are tacked, or they are on wide risers like mine and take a very secure 'set', then I think putting them through the slink loop has no risk and some benefit. Wrapping the excess around the riser is almost as good, just doesn't keep it as much above the toggle.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If you are sure you're slinks will not rotate, because they are tacked, or they are on wide risers like mine and take a very secure 'set', then I think putting them through the slink loop has no risk and some benefit.

Even if your Slinks have taken a good set, are tacked, or you have wide risers, the excess steering line can still snag the slink tab if the excess is stowed in the riser.

I really like the type 3 'binding tape' on the front of the rear riser method for stowing the excess steering line.

Derek

[sundevil777 102]

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Even if your Slinks have taken a good set, are tacked, or you have wide risers, the excess steering line can still snag the slink tab if the excess is stowed in the riser.

Agreed, don't use the end of the riser, put the excess through the slink itself.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Agreed, don't use the end of the riser, put the excess through the slink itself.

That addresses the problem of catching o the tab, but my convern with through the Slink itself is if the excess gets through one of the loops on the end of one of the lines. On opening the line will be held in place as tension is put on the line. Then when you release the brakes, the excess is stuck. Small chance, but figure the odds of the excess snagging on the tab.

Derek