Instructors: Do you feel like you're paid enough?

[LivingInClip 0]

I know I can't really add to this, but I want to say a few things.

(1) I think the instructors are underpaid. They risk their lives up there with students who are nervous and sometimes ungrateful , yet they go up, on their own free will to help someone else into the sport. What does an AFF-I net? Around 30 a jump? When you take in account most people pay upwards of $300 for a jump on a level one AFF, that isn't a lot for the Instructor.

(2) With all this talk, you guy's make me glad that I picked a DZ that has been around "since the old days" and so have the instructors. They're worried about safety, progression of the students and a family atmosphere. However, I can see how a larger DZ, in a warm weather state would need more and more AFF-I's in this growing sport and taking new instructors and progressing them even faster than before.

Is it good? No, but I think it is one of those things that a lot of people who quit the sport call "politics".

[Liemberg 0]

"Their contribution is so immensely important that it is almost impossible to put a monetary value on it - therefore we don't try..."


Other than that, I give you:
MARKET !

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[tombuch 0]

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If I were an AFF instructor, full time, the first benefit I'd want is health insurance. Basic health insurance like every other employee in every other indusrty gets.

Full time Instructors are not employees, they are independant contractors. Saves the DZ money.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. Hook is correct that many drop zones hire their instructors as independent contractors to avoid paying employment taxes and avoid offering insurance (including basic workers compensation protection). Yet, I think in many cases the designation of IC could be successfully challenged by DOL or IRS.

Small drop zones that only operate part time will probably qualify for independent contractor hiring, but larger full time drop zones probably won't.

In many cases the DZ sets the schedule, provides all the clients and prohibits the instructor from soliciting business independently. Most large drop zones provide the equipment used (tandem rigs, student gear, etc), set the instructor schedule, establish customer prices, restrict the instructor's ability to work for a competing drop zone, and provide "direction and control" of the operation.

The use of IC's is an interesting issue ripe for challenge. There are key points that the government looks at, and by most of those measures a "full time" instructor is probably an employee, not an independent contractor.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Tonto 1]

Yes.

Our pay for hired gun AFF is always slot plus a pack job, everyone else gets more. The idea being, do a dive, get a dive.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. Hook is correct that many drop zones hire their instructors as independent contractors to avoid paying employment taxes and avoid offering insurance (including basic workers compensation protection). Yet, I think in many cases the designation of IC could be successfully challenged by DOL or IRS.

Small drop zones that only operate part time will probably qualify for independent contractor hiring, but larger full time drop zones probably won't.

In many cases the DZ sets the schedule, provides all the clients and prohibits the instructor from soliciting business independently. Most large drop zones provide the equipment used (tandem rigs, student gear, etc), set the instructor schedule, establish customer prices, restrict the instructor's ability to work for a competing drop zone, and provide "direction and control" of the operation.

The use of IC's is an interesting issue ripe for challenge. There are key points that the government looks at, and by most of those measures a "full time" instructor is probably an employee, not an independent contractor.

I definately agree that IC status could be easily challenged. I've seen a DZ make their IC's sigh non-disclosure agreements and non-compete agreements, after they had been working there for over a year. The non-competes said they couldn't work at another DZ within 60 miles of that DZ, which meant that they would have to move to work somewhere else. They do it to save money. Give the IC a 1099 at the end of the year, save on taxes, worker's comp, etc.

All my AFF jumps, I made either $25 or $30, then had to pay the taxes on it with no benifits. I didn't even get to jump for free if there was an open slot.

Derek

[rjf98 0]

Why a minimum years in the sport? I'll agree with you that seasoning means something, and the best instructors are those that have actually worked in an area for a while.

With this particular sport though... I think the necessary skill set can be learned, and perhaps someone who goes from FJC to AFF-I in one year or even 6 months may be a better instructor than the guy who gets his rating at 3 years and meets the min FF time and jump numbers.

Think about it. Hour of tunnel time... breeze through AFF (as a student). More jumping your butt off learning and tunnel time and in 6 months you go to AFF-I course. Why should it take you 3 years to do it if you work so hard that you are ready in 6 months? We make 19 year old Marines responsible for 3 other lives all the time. With proper training why couldn't an 18 year old skydiver be ready for the responsiblity of one other life?

[Hooknswoop 19]

Being around for 3 years means you have seen different issues with students, heard or seen students do odd things, seen different ways to teach the same thing, seen different styles of teaching and the results of different techniques and styles. In short you have seen more of what works and what doesn’t. So instead of figuring that out with a real student, you have some experience to know that if the pull signal is a finger, don’t point at something in free fall. You learn less lessons on the students dollar. Free fall skills is only half the battle. If you are good Instructor, you will rarely, if ever, need to catch a student on their back spinning, passing through 2,000 feet.

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With this particular sport though... I think the necessary skill set can be learned, and perhaps someone who goes from FJC to AFF-I in one year or even 6 months may be a better instructor than the guy who gets his rating at 3 years and meets the min FF time and jump numbers.

Given the choice between two people that can pass the course and same jump #’s, the better Instructor is going to be the one with 3 years over the one with 6 months.

I don’t think I would argue with 2 years experience instead of 3, but there should be a minimum.

Derek

[rjf98 0]

Any luck getting info?

I took a look at the proficiency card on line last night.

It's a little confusing really.
"To be performed at the course"
Stop a spinning student, role a student over from their back, deploy for a student.
"On evaluation jumps satisfactorily perform as"
Main side cat C, Reserve Side Cat C, Single JM cat D.

Interesting that the card doesn't specifically spell out that stop the spin etc need to be done on "evaluation dives", just "at the course". I think it's open to interpretation b/c of the way the courses can be designed. 8 days with practice days, several weekends etc.

If those skills need only to be performed during practice days and then you still don't have to do it when the rating is on the line, then I think it's wrong and needs to be fixed. At my course they had to be pefromed on eval dives. (so I don't suck
Any CD want to chime in, or USPA staff?

[tombuch 0]

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Given the choice between two people that can pass the course and same jump #’s, the better Instructor is going to be the one with 3 years over the one with 6 months.

Agreed, but I would also say the better FLYER may well be the guy with 6 months of more intense experience. I think experienced instructors are probably more aware of the difference time in sport makes than are non-teaching skydivers, at least with regard to judgment and decision making.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Coach Course Director
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 3,114]

>Now, one can literally go from FJC to AFF in six months.

I know several people who did it in less than a year.

[Nightingale 0]

I was talking with an AFF instructor a couple of weeks ago about this. Cashwise, we bring home about the same. However, I have a lot of benefits through my job that he doesn't. My health care's paid for. I get paid time off and paid vacations. I am eligible for paid family leave. Independent contractors have to pay for all that... and then pay taxes on top of everything.

I wish more DZs would provide health care for their employees... it seems that if they're out there every day, doing something that can be as physically dangerous as skydiving, their employer ought to make sure they're covered if they get hurt.

Health insurance is cheaper the more people you get into a policy group... If all the DZs got together and formed one health care group under Blue Cross or something, the premiums would be low. The DZ wouldn't even have to pay the whole premium, just a percentage, and let the employees cover the rest (or even the whole thing!). It would be way cheaper for the employees to have a group insurance policy than it is to buy an individual policy...the difference can be a couple hundred bucks!

[billvon 3,114]

>Hour of tunnel time... breeze through AFF (as a student). More
> jumping your butt off learning and tunnel time and in 6 months you
> go to AFF-I course.

Having seen only one kind of student rig with one kind of deployment system, with one kind of instruction and one kind of after-graduation progression, out of one or two kinds of planes. Having never seen a fatality, or having to deal with jumping in the winter when the days get really short and the uppers pick up.

They may be competent to teach, but someone who's been around for 3 years, been to several DZ's, jumped out of 10 different planes, taken tandems out of 3 of them, and had to spot for demos and during winter bad weather - will have a broader base of experience, and that will allow him to pass more of that experience on to their students.

[rjf98 0]

Point made

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[sducoach 0]

Tom - Hook,

The DOL and IRS can and have delt with IC status several times however, not in skydiving that I or my beautiful Para-Legal Wife who works with Workman Comp issues can find.

1099 the instructors and you can still be considered an employee if you are asked to, provided for, expected to............

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Any luck getting info?

Not really. I would love to get my hands on the old and new Course Director paperwork…….

I did compare the old AFFI pre-course card (May 98) to the new one (IRM edition 3).

After removing similar requirements, here is what is left:


Old card:

Personally prepared written lesson pans for level 1-7

Demonstrated competence to gear up student, give gear check, and calibrate AAD

Received personal instruction on the following areas: in aircraft, in freef all, equipment, landings

Demonstrated knowledge of all seven levels of the AFF program and performed mock dirt dives for all.

Received personal instruction in climb out, exit, and free fall problems

Demonstrated competence to JM AFF students by performing as JM on nine release jumps using an AFF-rated person as a student, including stabilizing an inverted student, catching and stopping a spin, and pulling for the student (to be signed only if satisfactory)

Demonstrated ability to exit two seconds after and pin an AFF-rating holder safely. Must be reflected in candidate’s logbook.

Received instruction in post-jump critique, corrective training, logbook entries, and DZ records.

Demonstrated the ability to teach spotting.


New card:

Correctly taught free fall stability and basic free fall maneuvers, including free fall turns, backloops, barrel rolls, and tracking.

Derek

[tspillers 0]

Okay,

No more pay for Dave.

Oh, wait...he kisses up later so I quess he can get paid.

Rich joined in. I guess he wants to get paid when he moves down here too.

I have to agree that at a small DZ it can be tough to set higher standards. It is just something that is important to me. I want people to be safe and students to get a great education. The fact that I have all the ratings and could do every job helped. We are once again at that point where we need more instructors, but we are struggling through till the right person comes along or until one of the right people gets their freefall time and trains up for the AFF rating.

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.