fool 0 #26 December 11, 2003 Ok, this is just my thoughts on the whole matter. When the katana first was advertised, everyone and their dogs wanted to get a demo and test jump it. Now however, after a little while, it seems that much of the "to do" about it has died down... Just a thought... perhaps PD doesn't want everybody and their dog jumping this canopy, and waited this long so the people who do demo it, will do it because they know what they want out of a canopy rather than just wanting to be the first one on the block with the newest toy... I don't know, not directed at anyone in particular, just my thoughts. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #27 December 11, 2003 QuotePrecision will only make a xaos in any size you want. They used to offer their 7 cell in any size you want to, but have since removed that option it seems. Not in the nitron, though. Funny only the canopies that are "adapted" from the Icarus line could be built in any size. I think they still will make it in any size you wish. The sizing is done by the software that the cutting machine uses. They may have realized that there is not much of a market or need for a 152.5 Synergy (7 cell) and decided not to market the fact they can produce one. Doesn't mean they can't or won't. Again, the problem with scaling size is you are not scaling the same flight carachteristics as well. To do that you need to change the design some too. It's not much of an issue when you are changing the size slightly but becomes more apparent when you make large changes. The Icarus scaling (and Precision's since it's based on the same equipment designed by Gyro) is not base on taking a 120 sq ft design and making it into a 193.5 sq ft canopy. Instead there are several designs sizes of a an established design, and then the "custom" sizes are scaled from the nearest "standard" size. (i.e. a 193.5 would most likely be scaled from a 190)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 December 11, 2003 QuoteJust a thought... perhaps PD doesn't want everybody and their dog jumping this canopy, and waited this long so the people who do demo it, will do it because they know what they want out of a canopy rather than just wanting to be the first one on the block with the newest toy. Maybe, but I think it's more likely that they are just beta testing the snot out of it prior to releasing it. PD has a history ot testing, testing, testing, so that when the product hits market it's right the first time. A lot of the people whining on this thread are probably to "young" in the sport to remember the release of the Velocity, or Vengance. They took a looooong time from when we heard about them, to them being avaliable. Just serving up the cheese.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fool 0 #29 December 11, 2003 Right. That being said, and them having a history of doing the same thing repeatedly, also having a history of not being a company that improves upon their mistakes, not one that keeps making them over and over again, one might consider that there is reasoning that goes into why they do things the way they do. Just being argumentative at this point, but I personally, don't see the problem with the way they advertise early, and really think that, even if not intended, my previous post is at least a positive side effect. S.E.X. party #1 "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "f*#k, what a ride". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 December 11, 2003 QuoteMaybe, but I think it's more likely that they are just beta testing the snot out of it prior to releasing it. PD has a history ot testing, testing, testing, so that when the product hits market it's right the first time. Yes and its the reason I like PD products....The first people to buy it are not Beta testers. However the marketing here was bad. They let the market think it was being released "soon" for so long and told folks to wait for it. And the folks finaly got tired of waiting and started buying other canopies. When it comes out I am sure it will be a great canopy, but the wave has surged and now some who would look into it will not, or have bought other products. PD is also not going to tell you that it has problems with it....Since that creates a bad image QuoteA lot of the people whining on this thread are probably to "young" in the sport to remember the release of the Velocity, or Vengance. They took a looooong time from when we heard about them, to them being avaliable. And how many are to "young" t remember the Stilettos release? But either way the hype wave has started to swell. Im sure it will do well, but if it had been able to be released at WFFC it would have been the rage."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #31 December 11, 2003 QuoteThe first people to buy it are not Beta testers. I'm sure they are trying to avoid this happening again like was the case on the early sabre2's and vengeances. I've heard both early versions of these canopies had to be "tweeked" to become acceptable after the release. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #32 December 11, 2003 QuoteAnd how many are to "young" t remember the Stilettos release? Me!---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airgord 1 #33 December 11, 2003 How many people remember when the Sabre hit the market? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #34 December 13, 2003 I don't remember PD actually starting the advertising on the Velocity, Vengeance or Sabre2 until they came out. Hell, PD didn't even have a name for the Sabre2 for some time - they were torn on what to call it even when Skydive Chicago was doing test jumps on it. When I first jumped the canopy it was called the XE190. Is 6 months a long time to wait from marketing to product? Yea, of course - in IT rumors of it being Vaporware comes about. But then again, not all skydiver are on this forum talking about it - they have just seen 4 or 5 adds and probably never gave it a second thought. And most people won't care to find out more about it - I still know some people, including a gear seller or two, that think the Crossfire2 is a cross-braced canopy. But this is PD - and they usually go on the side of caution. I have no problems with them waiting until it's done. Like some popular game designer said "It's done when it's done." You know, if it hit the market and needed a mandatory SB shortly thereafter, it would kill the demand for the canopy and they would need to release the Katana2 just about a year later, not that any parachute company has ever done that I can wait, and I am not calling PD every day asking them about it - I will get a chance to jump it as soon as it's done, and I don't want to jump it before it.....now, where the hell is my copy of Doom3 and half-life 2????? Oh, and canopies can scale - ask PD what planform the Sigma and Sabre2 are based/scaled off of. The Vengeance._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #35 December 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteCanopies do not scale like some people think they do. I would definitely agree that canopies do not always scale well. I assisted the Parks College Parachute Research Group www.pcprg.com with various testing of scaled models of military canopies and we found radical changes in performance with changes in scale. Parachutes are very dynamic; I can see how PD may have run into some unexpected surprises at certain canopy sizes. Back when the Vengeance and Velocity came out, PD mentioned to a few of us over dinner one night how each new idea in parachute designs teaches them so much more......canopies like the Vengeance took an incredible amount of time to perfect, while the Velocity was one of the easiest ones to complete in the R&D process....which was opposite to what they believed would happen._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #36 December 13, 2003 >Oh, and canopies can scale - ask PD what planform the Sigma and Sabre2 are based/scaled off of. The Vengeance. Canopies do not scale like how you are thinking. You can not just strech the dementions of a canopy like a 75 on the CAD to a 370 and sew it together and expect it to fly the same in every size. Each size of canopy is trimmed slightly different or has its own unique tweeks to make it fly as close to the specifications as possible. On the longer canopys they take the longer line length into factor and design it so a 150 flies as close to how a 97 flies. Talk to Brian Germain about the scaling issues with the Sensei. Scaling it up too much made it fly so unlike the smaller sizes it was going to take a complete redesign to establish critera that all the canopy sizes could reach. Lets do some math on the Stiletto line trim to show that the specs are not just scaled off of each other. I'm going to do the difference between just the A1 lines of each size and the size above it. Trim Chart ST- 089 ST-097 ST-107 ST-120 ST-135 ST-150 ST-170 A1 98 101 7/8 107 1/2 113 7/8 120 3/4 127 1/4 135 1/2 The difference between the 89 and 97 is 3.803% for line length. The difference between the 97 and the 107 is 5.232% The difference between the 107 and the 120 is 5.598% The difference between the 120 and the 135 is 5.693% The difference between the 135 and the 150 is 5.108% The difference between the 150 and the 170 is 6.088% The differences is not a steady linear growth line since tweeks were needed to get the canopes to all fly similar to each other. All canopies need these tweeks done if you want all sizes to fly similar to each other reguardless of size.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #37 December 13, 2003 Phree - I am in agreement with you - some tweaking is needed - but they can be scaled....I never said they would fly the same. Along the same note - The Stiletto 190 doesn't quite fly the same as a ST150, IMO_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #38 December 13, 2003 If you scale them and they fly totally different then are they really the same intended result? With out the tweeking the entire end result might be totally different then what you want it to be.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
