lawrocket 3 #26 January 14, 2004 QuoteI wonder if this is more than lawrocket wanted More than I needed. Yes. More than I wanted. Heck no. Methinks I have found a subject. However, I'll have to limit it, as I can write a novel on the various permutations of this broad-scale problem. My main issue will be limiting the issue. This conversation alone probably brings up 30 separate and closely defined topics. Attorney pay per hour - $100 Opportunity cost for posing a question online - $3.00 Nightingale doing all kinds of research for me - Priceless!! There are somethings money can't buy. Willing assistance from a sharp mind doing legal research for herself is one of them. dz.com - for all your intellectual needs. Thanks, Nightingale! I hate tax law! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 January 14, 2004 QuoteHave you considered legality of parachuting in National Parks? That one seems pretty well-settled. I've read some of your writing on the topic, Mr. Aiello, and your stuff has been absolutely outstanding. I'm convinced that you could teach me a helluva lot more than I could teach you. Technicalities and such? I could certainly help with that, as well as explaining legal concepts and policies. of course, I'd be glad to help you with that, although I'd probably just plagiarize, er, um, I mean "research" your writings here and on blinc. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greene 0 #28 January 14, 2004 You are a very bright DZO! Thanks for typing all the answers for us. I am just to lazy. Nightengale, with 22 jumps, time to enter the real working world. I personally, in real life, am a realtor, independent contractor. I pay my taxes, and work when I want. I have no set hours. Do not have to show up at the office if I don't want to! Jim is the owner operator of SGC. Our staff, all of them at SGC are IC. It is their responsibility to check our calander. If they want to show up, they do. If not, others who showed up train, jump and get paid. It really is a very simple concept Yes,! their are IRS guidelines and we meet all of them! If no staff shows up to skydive, (never happens), Jim still does all that it needed. Again that never happens. Bottom line, no set hours, you determine if you show up and want to skydive and make money. If you do you must have a SS# or a work permit for non residents of the USA!!! And the most important of all is that ALL IC, MUST abide by the rules of the Company that hired them as and IC. i.e safety, drugs, company policies, sexual harrassment, on, and on and on. That is a standard operations for IC as per the IRS Skies blue Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 January 14, 2004 Great that applies to SGC. Are you confident that what applies there also applies to all other drop zones in the U.S.? Wouldn't it be worth a little discussion to try to figure out what is and is not acceptable. I don't think -anyone- is specifically suggesting that any -one- drop zone isn't following the rules. I'm almost certain nobody has come out and said SGC is specifically in violation and that's not really the issue anyway. We're just trying to find out what the rules are.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greene 0 #30 January 14, 2004 All you have to do is contact the IRS. They will send you a form, and you better follow it or else they will be on your ass. We did not make the rules at SGC, but we do follow them. PS: I am a little puzzled about your response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #31 January 14, 2004 What's puzzling you? I ain't no mind reader. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greene 0 #32 January 14, 2004 No, nobody said SGC was screwing the IRS. I answered a question about Contractors as per IRS requirements I only answered a post about IC and IRS requirements! What did you read into my post?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #33 January 14, 2004 Have all skydivers look in the mirror prior to the jump and remind them who is in charge of their safety. The incidents are heavily weighted towards experinenced jumpers. Instructors are not in the biz to give Ill fated advise to new jumpers. I am pretty sure about your motive re: this post by your handle.. Should'nt one be looking at the "MAJOR negligent party" before pointing a "bent" finger. Statistcally speaking it's our negligence. Courts and attorneys need to find that negligent party. Refer to the first sentence of the post. Thats why we sign waivers because this issue is so gray. The waivers indicate a hold harmless clause... why??? think about what your doing . Your post, if I am reading and understanding your motive correctly have cured me from ever participating in these forums again. Stop skydiving rather than look for someone to sue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #34 January 14, 2004 Well, there were a couple of sentences there where you seemed pretty defensive about Nightengale's comments and you sort of implied she was attacking SGC and shouldn't because she only has 22 jumps. Neither her 22 jumps, the specific agreements between SGC and the instructors that work there nor your experience in real estate really has any bearing on the issues of drop zones in general claiming instructors are independent contractors, when, in fact, a lot of times, they're not. I think a lot of the way people operate is really due to not being familiar with the various federal and state laws and simply doing what they perceive everyone else as doing. Your comments about SGC might be fine for your location, but might actually be totally inappropriate for some other states. Opening up the entire conversation is what lawrocket is trying to do. Saying something to the effect of "nawww, just look up the tax code and you'll be all right", is limiting and perhaps bad advice.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greene 0 #35 January 14, 2004 Believe me Mr. Quade, I am never puzzled!! I answered a question that was posted about IC and DZ's. You choose to state that no one was accusing SGC?? Excuse me!!! I think you are mistaken. I know no one was accusing SGC! I guess you and I are on two different pages. I only reported what the IRS needs to make an IC truly what they are. What are you reading or misreading in my original post? Let me know. This is the legal way to handle IC with the IRS. It is the same way my realtor office handles me ad a realtor broker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #36 January 14, 2004 Actually, you appear to have no idea what his motives are. He's looking at giving us some free education. You can either listen and learn or be ignorant of the facts. The choice is yours.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #37 January 14, 2004 hehe... I LIKE doing research, Lawrocket! I wouldn't be a grad student if I didn't. Plus, I want to be a lawyer, so I guess its good practice. I think what started me on this whole tangent was hearing about some instructors getting sick or hurt, and losing pay and worrying about rent because they didn't have sick time or insurance or the other benefits that come with being a full time employee. What I heard from them is that they would trade a little less pay for some better benefits when they really needed them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #38 January 14, 2004 Please read this quotation again and try to understand it from the point of view of somebody else reading it for the first time. Quote Nightengale, with 22 jumps, time to enter the real working world. I personally, in real life, am a realtor, independent contractor. I pay my taxes, and work when I want. I have no set hours. Do not have to show up at the office if I don't want to! Jim is the owner operator of SGC. Our staff, all of them at SGC are IC. It is their responsibility to check our calander. If they want to show up, they do. If not, others who showed up train, jump and get paid. It really is a very simple concept Yes,! their are IRS guidelines and we meet all of them! Again, it sounds very defensive and in one particular sentace, very condescending. And again, the IRS is only one of many goverment agencies that might have an interest in the business / independent contractor relationship. While the IRS is an important consideration, it is not the only one.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sargeatlarge 0 #39 January 14, 2004 Quote All of these responses are of interest to us out here in Australia. Our legal system is, of course, different but with quite a few fundamental commonalities. As a barrister (fancy name for traial lawyer out here) I would be very interested to see what issues and outcomes occur in the States. I'm all ears. SargeSarge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Greene 0 #40 January 14, 2004 What is fine for are location is fine for all locations in the USA as per the IRS. I am not talking about Ohio only. The IRS rules are nationwide. Including my non skydiving business as a realtor-broker! And yes, you living in California, (if that is correctAll have the same standards as far as the IRS is concerned!! Skies blue to all! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #41 January 14, 2004 Quote All have the same standards as far as the IRS is concerned!! Ok, fine. What about unemployment and workman's compensation?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #42 January 14, 2004 Guys, come one, don't trash this thread w/ bickering. Take it to the PMs. I was really learning a lot about the legal side before the past 5 posts or so.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #43 January 14, 2004 there are 3 issues here. 1) independent contractors 2) employees, 3) tax ramifications. I do understand his inquiry as to to the above, but wake up dude... its all about liability... who pays... yeah he his appeasing all with his questions that he is concerned about your financial welfare. I DO have have clue as to his post and it is about you (experienced instructors). Loose lips sink big ships Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Greene 0 #44 January 14, 2004 I have never been known to be condescending! Never meant to be, if that is how you read the post. Sorry. you don't know me. Is the person you referred to a IRS rep? If so, I am sorry, if not, I KNOW the IRS's laws for IC. They have nothing to do with SGC! Their rules apply to all business across the entire USA. However, on the other hand, as a "moderator" for this great site, well, you should not be so condescending nor judgemental. We all strive to make a better skydiving world! Lets strive to keep it that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #45 January 14, 2004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 4 #46 January 14, 2004 Additional resources: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_IndependentContractor.htmquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Pubwoof 0 #47 January 14, 2004 Great post. While the IRS does, in fact, apply this test for the purposes of determining who owes them the most jack, it isn't necessarily binding in other types of matters. Each state, for the purposes of administering unemployment insurance, disability, etc., has their own set of rules which govern whether or not you're to be considered an IC within that state. While most states (30+ states if I remember right) apply the same common law test as does the IRS, the remaining states use a more simplified version referred to as the 'ABC' test. This test also seeks to classify ICs mostly on the basis of the relative degree of control their employer/contractees have over them. As a general rule, it is easier to establish yourself as an IC under the common law test than it is under the ABC test. Regardless of which of these two tests are being applied, the underlying factual/legal questions are easy to twist around. Administrative hearings that apply either test can easily last for hours and can also yield the most unexpected of results (if only I was allowed to share some of the lurid details). Long story short, the question of whether you're an IC or not is murky at best. Before concluding whether your 'technically' an IC or not, talk to an attorney. If that isn't an option, checking with your state's Employment Dept. (names vary greatly between states) would at least tell you what the rules are where you live/work. The herein contained posting is intended for entertainment value only and should not be construed to constitute sane legal advice in any way, shape, or form. The author of this post has no formal legal training, and probably ought to be incarcerated (case still pending) The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #48 January 14, 2004 QuoteQuote All of these responses are of interest to us out here in Australia. Our legal system is, of course, different but with quite a few fundamental commonalities. As a barrister (fancy name for traial lawyer out here) I would be very interested to see what issues and outcomes occur in the States. I'm all ears. Sarge Sarge: Why don't you go ahead and do something similar for the Aussies? I'm sure they'd appreciate it, as would I. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sargeatlarge 0 #49 January 14, 2004 Quote We have something like that here...our federation keeps us up with the latest on law suits etc....i just figured you guys would have a few more than us......Sarge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #50 January 14, 2004 My personal stand has been that once the student pulls (obviously doesn't apply to tandems), then I am on a fun jump and insurance will cover that. Todd Sounds good here Todd, but I'd bet that the insurance company would disagree on this point. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Greene 0 #40 January 14, 2004 What is fine for are location is fine for all locations in the USA as per the IRS. I am not talking about Ohio only. The IRS rules are nationwide. Including my non skydiving business as a realtor-broker! And yes, you living in California, (if that is correctAll have the same standards as far as the IRS is concerned!! Skies blue to all! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #41 January 14, 2004 Quote All have the same standards as far as the IRS is concerned!! Ok, fine. What about unemployment and workman's compensation?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #42 January 14, 2004 Guys, come one, don't trash this thread w/ bickering. Take it to the PMs. I was really learning a lot about the legal side before the past 5 posts or so.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #43 January 14, 2004 there are 3 issues here. 1) independent contractors 2) employees, 3) tax ramifications. I do understand his inquiry as to to the above, but wake up dude... its all about liability... who pays... yeah he his appeasing all with his questions that he is concerned about your financial welfare. I DO have have clue as to his post and it is about you (experienced instructors). Loose lips sink big ships Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greene 0 #44 January 14, 2004 I have never been known to be condescending! Never meant to be, if that is how you read the post. Sorry. you don't know me. Is the person you referred to a IRS rep? If so, I am sorry, if not, I KNOW the IRS's laws for IC. They have nothing to do with SGC! Their rules apply to all business across the entire USA. However, on the other hand, as a "moderator" for this great site, well, you should not be so condescending nor judgemental. We all strive to make a better skydiving world! Lets strive to keep it that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #46 January 14, 2004 Additional resources: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_IndependentContractor.htmquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pubwoof 0 #47 January 14, 2004 Great post. While the IRS does, in fact, apply this test for the purposes of determining who owes them the most jack, it isn't necessarily binding in other types of matters. Each state, for the purposes of administering unemployment insurance, disability, etc., has their own set of rules which govern whether or not you're to be considered an IC within that state. While most states (30+ states if I remember right) apply the same common law test as does the IRS, the remaining states use a more simplified version referred to as the 'ABC' test. This test also seeks to classify ICs mostly on the basis of the relative degree of control their employer/contractees have over them. As a general rule, it is easier to establish yourself as an IC under the common law test than it is under the ABC test. Regardless of which of these two tests are being applied, the underlying factual/legal questions are easy to twist around. Administrative hearings that apply either test can easily last for hours and can also yield the most unexpected of results (if only I was allowed to share some of the lurid details). Long story short, the question of whether you're an IC or not is murky at best. Before concluding whether your 'technically' an IC or not, talk to an attorney. If that isn't an option, checking with your state's Employment Dept. (names vary greatly between states) would at least tell you what the rules are where you live/work. The herein contained posting is intended for entertainment value only and should not be construed to constitute sane legal advice in any way, shape, or form. The author of this post has no formal legal training, and probably ought to be incarcerated (case still pending) The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #48 January 14, 2004 QuoteQuote All of these responses are of interest to us out here in Australia. Our legal system is, of course, different but with quite a few fundamental commonalities. As a barrister (fancy name for traial lawyer out here) I would be very interested to see what issues and outcomes occur in the States. I'm all ears. Sarge Sarge: Why don't you go ahead and do something similar for the Aussies? I'm sure they'd appreciate it, as would I. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sargeatlarge 0 #49 January 14, 2004 Quote We have something like that here...our federation keeps us up with the latest on law suits etc....i just figured you guys would have a few more than us......Sarge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #50 January 14, 2004 My personal stand has been that once the student pulls (obviously doesn't apply to tandems), then I am on a fun jump and insurance will cover that. Todd Sounds good here Todd, but I'd bet that the insurance company would disagree on this point. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Sargeatlarge 0 #49 January 14, 2004 Quote We have something like that here...our federation keeps us up with the latest on law suits etc....i just figured you guys would have a few more than us......Sarge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiverRick 0 #50 January 14, 2004 My personal stand has been that once the student pulls (obviously doesn't apply to tandems), then I am on a fun jump and insurance will cover that. Todd Sounds good here Todd, but I'd bet that the insurance company would disagree on this point. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #50 January 14, 2004 My personal stand has been that once the student pulls (obviously doesn't apply to tandems), then I am on a fun jump and insurance will cover that. Todd Sounds good here Todd, but I'd bet that the insurance company would disagree on this point. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
