Downsizing question

[CornishChris 5]

I have a question sort of related to the downsizing checklist post this so i thought - why not.

i am currently flying a Maverick 200 which is an f-111 7 cell with about 400 jumps on it. I am about 190-195 out the door so I am pretty much 1:1 on this. i have 104 jumps and regular poor landings - i.e not stand up but not hurting myself. One of my instructors pointed out that there is little flare left in this canopy and that could be aiding my landings. Prior to this I was jumping a new PD 210 and having tiptoe landings every time.

I fly the canopy on front and rear risers in the air, can flat turn and occasiionaly use front risers to get a bit of speed to try and maximise the flare but some of your other criteria - rear riser landings, on a hill etc. I feel cannot really try. I made a comment to a friend last weekend that if I did not have such a good sense of humour these landings would really piss me off.

I am currently looking at a few Spectre 170's as a first canopy for my brother who is coming to Australia at Xmas and is slightly smaller than me - i was considering going for something of this size myself as well and would be interested in your comments. You will proboably recommend that I get a larger canopy that is ZP before dropping to a 170 but I getvery varied advice. A UK instructor mate of mine was here recently and he advised a 150 as my next canopy!

Anyway - over to you...
CJP

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ive tried Mav200 and Merit170. My exit weight was about 95Kgs. The difference is haven and hell. Merit has penty of lift. I think you could try some ZP 170 Spectre/Sabre...... without any problem.

[cruzlite 0]

PATIENCE BIG FELLER !!!

IMO;

190--This is my next WL (at 54 its down hill from here)
170-- Caution; can and WILL bite you (About my WL)
150--Are you^%%#@*& crazy? (Don't go here yet)

[wmw999 2,587]

If the canopy's getting ragged out, then that will definitely affect the flare. You could try either borrowing or renting gear in that size that's Z-po a few times to check, or you could try Scotchgarding the Maverick (I'm told that can restore some of its zero-p characteristics).

Either way, remember that falling down isn't a sign of failure as long as you're in control of the fall, and you get back up again.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,111]

>I am currently looking at a few Spectre 170's as a first canopy for my
> brother who is coming to Australia at Xmas and is slightly smaller
> than me - i was considering going for something of this size myself
> as well and would be interested in your comments.

Well, you guessed it - I would recommend going to a Spectre 190 first. Even if you got your hands on a Spectre 210 (or a Sabre 2 210) you would be amazed at the difference from the Maverick. I have an old Mav and it's a dog. F111 and square 7 cell!

The 170 wouldn't be the end of the world but it would be critical to get training on it as soon as possible. You can try to train yourself using that list, but your risk increases as you make larger jumps in canopy sizing.

We're really spoiled out here. I think that one of the reasons that the people at Perris are generally pretty skilled canopy flyers is that new jumpers can rent any canopy they want from Square 1, and the staff does a really good job steering people to the right canopy. On any given weekend, most of the larger Spectres will be rented out to newer jumpers.

> A UK instructor mate of mine was here recently and he advised a
> 150 as my next canopy!

You'll hear that a lot. The advice is along the lines of "jump a 150 and be REALLY REALLY careful with it - don't turn low!" which I think is exactly backwards. Jump a canopy that you're completely comfortable with and _learn_ to turn low, so that you don't have to fear injury under the 150 once you finally get there.

[rigging65 0]

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> A UK instructor mate of mine was here recently and he advised a
> 150 as my next canopy!

Reply to Chris, taking the quote form billvon:

There's a fine line here. What your buddy may have been offering was the idea that you want to make an intelligent purchase...that is, buy something with a little room for growth. If you're like most people, money is an issue and you can't simply buy another canopy every 100 jumps until you get to a 1:1.3 loading or so.

Where you walk the line is how much growth room you're leaving. Personally, with jumpers that I've either instructed or know well, I have no problem getting many of them into a slightly smaller canopy than would be "perfect" for them at 30-60 jumps. But that's only with jumpers I'm familiar with. I certainly wouldn't make a blind statement to all new jumpers to "buy smaller so they can grow into it".

You want something that you'd be comfortable landing out, in bad winds, but that you also feel like you can get a bit of growth in. Maybe that means looking at different model canopies as opposed to different size canopies. Ask questions of knowledgeable people you trust (and that know you) and DEMO DEMO DEMO....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[shawnstarr 0]

i agree.

buy somthing you can grow into. just make conservative landings until you get a feel for it. people are so uptight about wing loading when the important issue is the pilot's head not his weight.

i purchased my first system used and it had a sabre 120 in it. at first i wanted to trade it for somthing larger but decided to go ahead and be really careful. i weigh 165-170 w/o gear. i jumped my sabre on jump# 28. i now have 120 jumps on it, 99% stand up on target.

just be conservative and aware of the danger

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

. If you're like most people, money is an issue and you can't simply buy another canopy every 100 jumps until you get to a 1:1.3 loading or so.

Sure you can.

Buy used canopies, from private parties so you don't eat someone's markup, with a few hundred jumps on the lineset so you nor the person you sell them to will need to pay for a reline.

By following those simple rules your main will cost no more than $1-$1.50 a jump regardless of how many you go through. Depreciation on used containers is similar.

I put less than a hundred jumps on my first canopy, about a dozen on a demo sized between #1 and #2, and not much over a hundred jumps on the next two. Apart from #4 which I kept for skysurf/birdman and #7 which is still real new none have cost me more than that.

[skybytch 273]

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i now have 120 jumps on it

Congratulations on surviving your gear choice for this long.

Maybe when you've been in the sport for a few more years and have seen what happens when people listen to "advice" like yours and then have shit happen to them, you'll realize that those who preach conservative sizing for novices just might know WTF they are talking about.

[CornishChris 5]

Well I test jumped a Beta 170 on saturday for two jumps. I pulled high on it and had a play around. The first thing I did was stick a line twist in by being a little over zealous with the toggles (used to a 200 F111 7 cell remember) but after I had time to play with it for a while I was quite comfortable.

It is very different to what I have been jumping but I did not feel uncomfortable under it and I landed in the peas on tip toes both times and felt more confident on landing than I did on my 200 due to it's worn out flare.

Personally after 110 jumps I feel happy to drop to this canopy. I spoke to my instructors and they seemed to think it was fine too - they watched me under it and were happy with the landings. I will have a lot to learn on it and am not going to get bored with it too quickly i think.

I find the downsizing to a 120 a little over zealous but I believe that I am being conservative and with care and consideration I will be fine on this canopy. I have already seen too many serious injuries to be flippant about this type of thing.

Thank you all for your advice.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[jerry81 10]

Quote

i agree.

buy somthing you can grow into. just make conservative landings until you get a feel for it. people are so uptight about wing loading when the important issue is the pilot's head not his weight.

i purchased my first system used and it had a sabre 120 in it. at first i wanted to trade it for somthing larger but decided to go ahead and be really careful. i weigh 165-170 w/o gear. i jumped my sabre on jump# 28. i now have 120 jumps on it, 99% stand up on target.

just be conservative and aware of the danger

I think along the same lines. (Check my profile to see exactly what I mean)
But I'd be extremely wary of giving this sort of advice (actually, with my numbers, most any sort of advice) to someone I do not know and had not seen fly.

(advice I feel competent enough to give) Chris, if you're comfortable on the canopy and your instructors think it's good for you- it probably is.

---

[billvon 3,111]

>buy somthing you can grow into. just make conservative landings
>until you get a feel for it.

I agree, but the important part is on the opposite side - he should not downsize to the small canopy until he can fly the heck out of his current canopy. If he's making conservative landings because he's worried about the canopy, and still downsizes, he's an incident waiting to happen.

>people are so uptight about wing loading when the important issue is
>the pilot's head not his weight.

A pilot with a poor "head" (i.e. not enough training on small canopies) must indeed worry about his weight. It's like anything else. It's perfectly true to say it's a pilot's skill and not the plane he's flying that makes the difference - but just because I can fly a Cessna 172 well doesn't mean I can handle an F-16 without training. If I said "Hey, I'll be real careful on the F-16 and just sort of learn as I go" I'd be laughed at.

>i purchased my first system used and it had a sabre 120 in it. at first
> i wanted to trade it for somthing larger but decided to go ahead and
> be really careful.

I'd advise you to read the incidents page; check out all the other jumpers who were being careful and broke their legs (or worse.)

>i weigh 165-170 w/o gear. i jumped my sabre on jump# 28. i now
>have 120 jumps on it, 99% stand up on target.

I'd advise you to get to a canopy training course as soon as humanly possible. Landing without injury is not the same as being proficient on a canopy. Can you flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet? Flare turn 45 degrees? Land with rear risers? Pull off a high performance front riser landing? If not, start working on those skills immediately, preferably with a good coach. The life you save may be your own.

[shawnstarr 0]

yup.yup.yup. and yes.
i'm very proficient with all of that.

i've used my front risers on my last 50 jumps. always hit the target. and always touch down smoothly

• Quote

[meltdown 0]

***
Can you flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet? Flare turn 45 degrees? Land with rear risers? Pull off a high performance front riser landing?
___________________________________________
Bill-
I am curious about the HP front riser landing, and in what situation that might be needed as a life saving tool. Perhaps if you are overshooting badly, or need to get down quick to avoid something?

[koz2000 1]

You definitely wouldn't want to use a front riser landing if you are going to overshoot and you're going to hit something. If you do continue to overshoot, you've now built up extra speed to really hurt yourself. Typically a front riser landing should be used to build up speed to give longer swoops. By adding speed the canopy is able to generate more lift. I think adding front risers in a threatening situation would only add more problems (ie speed). Use that flat turn.
d

Maybe, maybe, maybe only in that last second realization that you're going to fly under powerlines should you use it, but you better be on the flare quickly so you don't break femurs, pelvis, tib/fib, etc. I saw a guy on a 175 Monarch at 1.2wl, remain on front risers until approx ten feet off the ground, and attempt to find his toggles (He let go of them) and broke both femurs and cracked his pelvis. Of course the best way to is to make that decision early and high.

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[Ron 10]

Quote

buy somthing you can grow into. just make conservative landings until you get a feel for it. people are so uptight about wing loading when the important issue is the pilot's head not his weight

Thats because the jumper may not use his head when the shit hits the fan.

Quote

i purchased my first system used and it had a sabre 120 in it. at first i wanted to trade it for somthing larger but decided to go ahead and be really careful. i weigh 165-170 w/o gear. i jumped my sabre on jump# 28. i now have 120 jumps on it, 99% stand up on target.

This does not mean that jump #121 you will not die.
There is a reason that we preach WL....I have seen many folks do great for 100 jumps just to get broken/killed on jump #101

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,111]

>I am curious about the HP front riser landing, and in what situation
>that might be needed as a life saving tool.

I have a list of skills that I think are a good idea to master before you downsize. The whole list is in another thread. Some of these are survival skills - being able to flat turn would have saved half a dozen people this year alone. Some are canopy familiarization skills - being able to do a gentle front riser approach teaches you how to judge altitude and speed at low altitudes, and how to fly a parachute flying faster than its trim airspeed.

Performing a front riser approach is somewhat like learning to initiate a skid in a car. You'll probably never be in a situation where you need to start a skid to save your life, but knowing how to _recover_ from a skid might.

[skybytch 273]

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I am curious about the HP front riser landing, and in what situation that might be needed as a life saving tool

I don't see that as a life saving tool, more a "mastery of this canopy" skill. Downsizing generally equals coming in on final carrying more speed; having already done high performance front riser landings on a larger canopy shows that the jumper is already capable of handling more speed on landing, and shows that a jumper is comfortable and confident using things other than toggles to control their canopy.

[meltdown 0]

That answers my question.

Thanks

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

buy somthing you can grow into. just make conservative landings until you get a feel for it. people are so uptight about wing loading when the important issue is the pilot's head not his weight.

just be conservative and aware of the danger

Over half the landing injuries I've seen (broken femur, tibia, pelvis, spine, wrist, cocyx, sacrum) were on conservative pilots who just got surprised. Some were under surprisingly large canopies (the pelvis+sacrum+L4+cocyx incident happened at less than a pound/square foot).

Even people with experience in other high-speed sports (aerobatic planes, motorcycles, etc.) don't know how they're going to react ahead of time. No one knows how small changes in canopy size are going to affect them until they try it (let alone bigger jumps. I know people who've downsized a couple of sizes at once and then found optimum performane after a couple of up-sizes). Be conservative.

It's also a lot better to make a conservative (this is relative) canopy go faster when you want than to be stuck with extra speed when things go to hell (fences, trees, being cut-off, landing out, long spots with low turns back into the wind) and people tend to be overwhelmed.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I am curious about the HP front riser landing, and in what situation that might be needed as a life saving tool.

A smaller canopy is going to be coming in at least that fast in full-flight. If you would not be comfortable with that sort of speed landing on a concrete road, between houses, etc. you shouldn't down size and be stuck with that speed.

[TribalTalon 0]

i'm actually looking at getting my own rig, i've been standing up every landing and actually pretty accurately, as well. I'm down to a 200 sq foot canopy now, and still feel pretty good about landing it, i dont feel like i'm going to kill myself with it. I've been thinking about getting a Spectre 170, i weigh about 190-200 out the door. I would be using a very conservative wing loading, and really concentrating more on accuracy then swooping since i want to eventually switch over to base. I'm a VERY poor college boy, so basically once i get a canopy, thats it, its gonna have to last me for a few years. So i dont want to get like a 190 or something and then get tired of it and bored and be stuck. at the same time i dont want to go too low, like a 120 or something (YIKES)

[pilotdave 0]

I know I don't have enough jumps to be giving advice, but in my experience, 1.18 isn't a terribly conservative wingloading for a new jumper. I simply don't believe you can know how bored you would be on a 190 canopy or any other non-student canopy for that matter. I believe most (or all?) base canopies are bigger than what you're jumping now. Accuracy jumpers also jump big canopies (not that you're talking about competition accuracy).

My point is that light wing loading DOES NOT necessarily mean it'll be boring. I put about 100 jumps (starting around jump #40) on an F111 canopy loaded at about .85, and I had plenty of fun.

Also, keep in mind that if you ever do want to downsize, you'll sell your old canopy and get back the majority of your purchase price... it's not like you'll be buying a whole new rig.

My first canopy was $450. Buy cheap first, use it till you want to downsize, then buy good stuff that you'll keep for longer.

Just my opinion.

Dave

[BETO74 0]

[i am currently flying a Maverick 200 which is an f-111 7 cell with about 400 jumps on it. I am about 190-195 out the door so I am pretty much 1:1 on this. i have 104 jumps and regular poor landings ]

That means that you are 170 pounds without gear, to this in perspective I used to be 165 flying a 190 Sabre put me somewhere in 1:1 ratio, I down size after a 150 jumps to 169 Safire and gain weight now I'm 180 pounds, 200 out the door while flying the Safire got into a couple bad landings nothing too serious but made me realize about down sizing and canopy shape is a serious matter after my Safire I got an Crossfire 159 and after 100 and some jumps on this one I'm still learning . What I would think a perfect canopy progression will be is 190 Sabre after a couple hundrds 170 Sabre.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[skybytch 273]

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So i dont want to get like a 190 or something and then get tired of it and bored and be stuck.

You won't get stuck. Buy a used 190, put a hundred or two jumps on it then sell it. Trust me, it'll sell fast. Then buy a used 170. No problem.

Learn to fly the shit out of a 190. There's worse things in life than being bored under canopy for a few jumps.