chuckakers 426 #1 September 21, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCWVt-yusOk The video link provided was posted on the USPA youtube account from the 2013 USPA Nationals 10-way speed formation event. I do not know who this jumper is or what team was being filmed, nor does it matter in the context of this post. I am not posting this to call out this jumper, rather to show just how easy it is to get caught up in the moment (presumably) and make mistakes that can kill you and/or your fellow jumpers. This video depicts a 10-way speed formation team performing bottom-of-the-skydive antics, vying for a “Judges Choice” award. Everything appears normal until the camera flyer releases his/her pilot chute, and then this: Skydive: 10-way FS Break off altitude: unknown Canopy type: cross braced, model unknown Altimeter: wrist mount, right wrist, others unknown Audible altimeter: unknown Timeline on video: 3:39 – pilot chute thrown 3:41 – line twists at line stretch in frame, assumed recognition 3:44 – spin begins, malfunction recognition should be obvious 3:47 – jumper grabs risers at twist, attempts to untwist with grip torque in wrong direction 3:51 – jumper reaches higher on risers above twists, hands interact with excess brake line, toggles, and progressive riser twists – interaction continues for 12 seconds 4:00 – another canopy visible below and very close, flying left to right 4:01 – second canopy visible below and very close flying right to left 4:03 – jumper reaches down with both hands 4:04 – jumper releases main canopy, another canopy visible slightly above and very close after cutaway 4:07 – reserve ripcord pulled 4:09 – reserve open (slider down assumed, not in frame) The jumper presumably recognized the malfunction at or before 3:44, the moment when the spin began. From that point until 4:03 – 21 seconds – the jumper attempted various techniques to fix the problem unsuccessfully – some that could have fatally snagged him/her to the canopy – while spinning and descending into crowded airspace. The jumper stayed with the canopy and descended through and below other jumpers who were under good canopies and in close proximity before finally initiating a cutaway and reserve deployment. In total, 30 full seconds passed from the time the jumper threw out the main pilot chute until the reserve was open. 30 seconds from tossing a pilot chute to getting an open canopy. Think about that…. In taking so long before performing emergency procedures, this jumper literally descended below his/her teammates after initially deploying at breakoff, passing through airspace littered with other canopies. It is by nothing but dumb luck that there was not a collision - main to main, main to reserve, or freefall to canopy or jumper. On a side note, it is possible that the other jumpers visible in the video did not track well enough to create good separation and/or did not break off at an altitude that allowed for time to create good separation. That said, if this jumper had taken emergency procedure sooner, close proximity with the other jumpers would not have occurred. This jump could have turned out much worse than it did. If it had – and if for some reason there wasn’t video of what happened – we would all be scratching our heads asking what happened and possibly memorializing more of our friends. My guess is that the camera flyer in this video never realized how much time he/she was wasting or how dangerous his/her actions were. This was truly a close call. If this was not a mistake and the camera flyer was aware of the scenario as seen in the video, I suggest a serious conversation be conducted behind the hangar and a major league evaluation be conducted of this person’s attitude toward the sport and potential for disaster. Quite frankly I’m surprised that whoever edited the video for USPA left it in the footage.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FB1609 0 #2 September 21, 2013 Meh, as seen so many times on this forum, it's not about time, but altitude. Seems like he still had plenty when he chopped, as for the person below, could have been far enough away, it's hard to tell from a camera where they actually were....and even so, what is he supposed to do then, he's at the point where he has to chop now, he did. Ideally he should have chopped sooner, by I didn't see much wrong with his actions other than maybe not looking down while trying to get the twists out, again if he was over someone, not much he could do then either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #3 September 21, 2013 FB1609Meh, as seen so many times on this forum, it's not about time, but altitude. Seems like he still had plenty when he chopped, as for the person below, could have been far enough away, it's hard to tell from a camera where they actually were....and even so, what is he supposed to do then, he's at the point where he has to chop now, he did. Ideally he should have chopped sooner, by I didn't see much wrong with his actions other than maybe not looking down while trying to get the twists out, again if he was over someone, not much he could do then either. I used time as a reference to demonstrate how long the jumper messed around with a mal that was obviously screwed. There is no sense at all spending as much time as this jumper did - 21 seconds - doing pretty much nothing except risking getting his/her hands caught up in the mess above the twists, especially when doing so means closing in on the jumpers below. But since you mention the whole "it's not about time" thing.... I personally know several jumpers who have had incidents in which they spent too much TIME trying to clear spinning mals that continued to get worse and by the time they cut away they had a hard time doing so because of high G's, hard pulls, and/or disorientation. In fact we lost a good friend earlier this year that all evidence points to him being badly disoriented and partially incapacitated by the time he cut away a highly loaded spinning mal and never pulled his reserve ripcord. So yes, taking too much time to deal with a mal - especially a spinning mal - is a problem. As for the proximity of the other canopies, it is quite clear where they are. Take a look at the video grabs attached to this reply. Unless the camera flyer was using a telephoto lens - which clearly he/she was not - those canopies are closer than anyone I know would call safe under the circumstances. Even if they had been further away it was still dumb luck that the camera flyer ended up where he/she did rather than 100 or 200 feet one way or the other. Under an uncontrollable canopy, it's impossible to know where a jumper will go, making the only good separation vertical separation. This jumper wasted time doing nothing constructive while descending into crowded airspace. What was the point in that? Your last statement borderlines on ridiculous. You say there was nothing wrong with his/her actions except "maybe not looking down while trying to get the twists out", and then admit that doing so wouldn't have done any good anyway. You confirmed my point. The only thing the camera flyer could have done to avoid the scenario was to have chopped sooner - ideally, of course.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FB1609 0 #4 September 21, 2013 yeah, I guess those screen grabs show they are pretty close. I agree it wasn't ideal, but hey, this is skydiving. 8 people below you at break off will always have some possibility of jumpers nearby or below you if you mal. As for trying to clear it so long, he had the altitude, safer to not chop if you can get it clear, at least he knew when to stop trying, seemed to me like they were pretty aware of alt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #5 September 21, 2013 FB1609yeah, I guess those screen grabs show they are pretty close. I agree it wasn't ideal, but hey, this is skydiving. 8 people below you at break off will always have some possibility of jumpers nearby or below you if you mal. As for trying to clear it so long, he had the altitude, safer to not chop if you can get it clear, at least he knew when to stop trying, seemed to me like they were pretty aware of alt. I guess we'll have to keep breaking this down for you. After convincing you that the canopies this camera flyer descended into - uncontrollably, I might add - were dangerously close, now you argue that it's "safer to not chop if you can get it clear". You are very naive, my man. I suggest you look back in the history books a bit. There are countless incidents involving people who died trying to fix mals rather than chop them, yet only a handful who have died chopping at the correct altitude and deploying a reserve. Those who did die chopping mals usually made other mistakes that led to their demise. There have been very, very few cases in which a jumper performed textbook emergency procedures and died anyway. It's tough to argue with history. The statistics are against you - by a long shot. To think of performing emergency procedures as being more dangerous than attempting to fix a violent malfunction is nothing short of ludicrous. As I said in my earlier post, riding mals, especially spinning mals on highly loaded canopies, has proven deadly time after time. Chopping and getting a reserve out at an appropriate altitude almost never has. I suggest you rethink your logic.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bertt 0 #6 September 21, 2013 Quotespinning mals on highly loaded canopies... What do you think about the idea of bigger, slower canopies for formation jumps?You don't have to outrun the bear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #7 September 22, 2013 Quote As for trying to clear it so long, he had the altitude, safer to not chop if you can get it clear, at least he knew when to stop trying, seemed to me like they were pretty aware of alt. Was he? Or was he just lucky? IF he was 100% aware of his hard deck & played with it until then, I still have to scratch my head a bit. 30 seconds is a really LONG time to be futzing with a canopy that wasn't responding to any of the input he was trying. Comes a point in time ya gotta throw in the towel & go with plan B...remember, there are physiological concerns with a fast spinner, the longer ya push it the closer to vapor locking you get. And...Okay yeah I'm a cheap ole bastard, but I tend to worry a bit about the extra wear I'm putting on a canopy that isn't flying right...I try twice to fix it and C-ya. I've seen guys do 300.00 worth of damage trying to clear a line-over that they ended up chopping anyway. "It was a slow malfunction & I had time" ~yeah, time to saw through 1/2 the parachute! I'm with Chuck on this one...let 'er go high if you're high. Heck ya may NEED that extra altitude to hook knife a line-over on the RESERVE! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #8 September 22, 2013 BerttQuotespinning mals on highly loaded canopies... What do you think about the idea of bigger, slower canopies for formation jumps? I'm a fan. I am an organizer at a large DZ (Spaceland) and just up-sized with that very kind of utility in mind. I was 2:1 on a Velocity and I'm now 1.4 on a Stiletto.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #9 September 22, 2013 Honest question. What if.....you have a spinning mal like this case, and you happen to see canopies flying under you. Do you chop and risk having a freefall colision? Or wait till you are level with them before chopping?...given you have altitude to wait, ofcourse.HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #10 September 23, 2013 yeyoHonest question. What if.....you have a spinning mal like this case, and you happen to see canopies flying under you. Do you chop and risk having a freefall colision? Or wait till you are level with them before chopping?...given you have altitude to wait, ofcourse. Several thoughts. - Depth perception beyond 50 or 100 feet is notoriously poor, making it difficult to tell if jumpers below are 100 feet away or several hundred feet away. - A mal that can be ridden one second can become a mal that will incapacitate a jumper the next second. - Altitude above is worthless. Every foot of altitude is important in the event of a post-deployment problem like line twists on the reserve, a spot over poor or even dangerous landing areas, etc. - Under a spinning canopy it can be difficult to pinpoint exactly where other canopies are. "Below" is a vague location by which to base a decision. Even if there are jumpers below, there's no way to know if chopping will create a hazard vs creating a hazard by riding a spinning canopy through traffic. - Finally and most important, a jumper's top priority under a mal is to get under a good canopy. Everything else is secondary to the task at hand. I'm sure there will be some super hero types who will offer loads of advice that contradict my opinion, but I would never sacrifice altitude because of jumpers below for all of the reasons listed here. The only exception I would make is if I could tell for certain that riding the mal for a short distance would clearly be better than chopping and those circumstances would be quite rare.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #11 September 24, 2013 Tow things in this jumpers favor... 1. Camera flyer dumpen out on breakoff gives him some altitude to play with. 2. Line twists are one of those mals that people tend to stay with too long. But I'm with Twardo on this one. Riding a mal is hard on the gear (not to mention... hard on us old farts), Ya gotta trust the researve. That's what it's there for. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #12 September 24, 2013 Thanks for taking the time HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nadominhoca 0 #13 September 24, 2013 Guys, let's face it... it's very easy to point it out a lot of mistakes when is not your ass out there... I totally understand the purpose of this topic, the name explains by itself... but when you are there, facing a situation like this.. it's your instincts, your training, your capabilities that will dictate how you will deal with that situation.. We don't know for example, how many cuts this guys have.. maybe this was his first one... which makes totally understandable the 30 secs that it took from him to realise that he need it to chop it.. Again, we don't know... Withme is simple.. I keep looking up and monitoring my canopy openning every jump that I make.. all the times I'm with my hands at my cutway chute... if something is not good, I don't think twice.. I cut it! That's my technique and works pretty well for me! Now, regarding the other jumpers around.. Dude, that's mainly THEIR responsibilities to check traffic and get away from jumpers with malfunctions... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #14 September 24, 2013 nadominhocaNow, regarding the other jumpers around.. Dude, that's mainly THEIR responsibilities to check traffic and get away from jumpers with malfunctions... Really? ... My canopy is not transparent - so I can't see what is going on above me (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #15 September 24, 2013 nadominhocaGuys, let's face it... it's very easy to point it out a lot of mistakes when is not your ass out there... QuoteOf course it is. Doing so is one way to help keep others from making the same mistakes. I totally understand the purpose of this topic, the name explains by itself... but when you are there, facing a situation like this.. it's your instincts, your training, your capabilities that will dictate how you will deal with that situation.. QuoteCapabilities and instincts are a result of training. If a jumper can't respond properly and promptly to an emergency there was a problem somewhere along the way. For experienced jumpers the problem isn't usually a lack of training. It's usually simple poor judgment or "I can handle it" syndrome - which IS poor judgment. In the case of spinning mals - as many admit after living through low cutaways - the problem is most often that they believed they could fix it, just as some here have tried to justify. Making matters worse, these jumpers sometimes do fix the mal, tempting them to try even longer the next time. That's called sport death and it lurks around the corner of every excuse you'll ever hear in the sport. We don't know for example, how many cuts this guys have.. maybe this was his first one... which makes totally understandable the 30 secs that it took from him to realise that he need it to chop it.. Again, we don't know... QuoteThat is NOT understandable. Newbies often take longer to deal with mals - hence higher deployment altitudes - but the person in question here had enough experience to be flying camera and jumping at the nationals. Being a first chop is NOT an excuse for slow reactions for an experienced jumper. Again, sport death is often disguised as excuses. Withme is simple.. I keep looking up and monitoring my canopy openning every jump that I make.. all the times I'm with my hands at my cutway chute... if something is not good, I don't think twice.. I cut it! That's my technique and works pretty well for me! QuoteEither your description was ill-phrased or you need more training yourself. During deployment you should have your hands on your risers ready to steer away from traffic - like someone spinning past you with a mal. Now, regarding the other jumpers around.. Dude, that's mainly THEIR responsibilities to check traffic and get away from jumpers with malfunctions... QuoteThat is blatantly incorrect. Low jumper has the right-of-way - and for good reason. It's difficult and often impossible to see traffic overhead, especially traffic that is descending nearly vertically. Like all airmen, it is the responsibility of all jumpers to yield to the "least maneuverable craft" - meaning the person with the mal - but you can't avoid what you can't see. I'm not trying to insult you but you may want to rethink some of your understandings. They are clearly not in sync with commonly accepted best practices and could prove to be a problem for you and/or others. Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nadominhoca 0 #16 September 24, 2013 Chuck, I respect your opinions, but not necessarily agree with them... altough I believe I need more training and experience, like all of the other jumpers out there.. this is a sport where you learn things everyday, in every single jump! In any case, you are not insulting me, not at all.. I just think it's funny that you don't agree with a single topic that I wrote it.. it's difficult to argue with someone who simply believes that knows everything! I could go on and on again about every answer that you gave me, but I don;t wanna create a big discussion here.. my whole point, is that, we have people with different skills and different capabilities.. taking EPs for example.. there are a lot of reccommendations for sure, and common pratices... but each one deals with it, the way they are able to! Everybody wants to learn.. no one wants to get hurt and hurt the others.. but what I am saying is that you can't say this is right, or this is worng in every situation our there.. that's why I mentioned that it's your instincts, training and capabilities that will dictate how you react.. by the way, I don;t agree that instinct are purely result of training.. And just one more comment, regarding my last point: "Now, regarding the other jumpers around.. Dude, that's mainly THEIR responsibilities to check traffic and get away from jumpers with malfunctions". Yeap, I agree with you, that the lower jump has the preference, you can't avoid what you can;t see, etc.. but it's everybody's jobs to monitor the traffic 100% of the time!!! Knows where you are, knows who jumped before you at the jump run... In any case, I think it's a good post, altough I don;t agree the way you describe and judge the person.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckakers 426 #17 September 24, 2013 nadominhoca...and judge the person.. I wasn't judging the person. I was critiquing the person's actions. Confusing the two makes constructive conversation nearly impossible.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rifleman 70 #18 September 24, 2013 nadominhoca ! Knows where you are, knows who jumped before you at the jump run... Doesn't always help as I've left the aircraft after someone else (both of us on S/L) and ended up as the lower canopy and then spent time looking below me for the previous jumper when he's actually above.Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #19 September 24, 2013 QuoteIn any case, you are not insulting me, not at all.. I just think it's funny that you don't agree with a single topic that I wrote it.. it's difficult to argue with someone who simply believes that knows everything! Just to clarify ~ Chuck is an organizer at one of the largest Dz's in the U.S., He's been a DZO and ran a top notch organization for years. He will be the first to tell ya he doesn't 'know it all' but much of his time in the sport has been dedicated to helping others become safe and proficient skydivers. I've been in the sport longer than Chuck, but I have no reservation about seeking his opinion regarding any question I may have. When his input doesn't agree with what I was thinking...I tend to take a harder look at what I was thinking. There is a big difference between being instructional & being argumentative, Sometimes that difference doesn't translate will in written form...but FWIW I agree with Chuck on his assessment. There really isn't all that much wiggle room on what should be done, when & how. The excuses that manifest following someone not adhering to recognized procedures invariably come down to that person either not fully understanding the situation or them thinking their mad skills allow for a different approach. Either way the ground Doesn't Care ~ we do what we do because over time and trial it's shown to be the most effective way to insure participation another day. In other words - no one has ever been trained to dick with a malfunction for 1/2 a minute, and if they think doing so is ok then their judgement is in question. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MichaelAnthony 0 #20 September 24, 2013 Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #21 September 24, 2013 MichaelAnthony Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #22 September 24, 2013 airtwardo ***Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. What kind of soil do you use?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #23 September 24, 2013 Remster ******Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. What kind of soil do you use? I find that impact crater yields the best results...pure virgin soil sprinkled with bullshit ~ best fertilizer going! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckakers 426 #24 September 24, 2013 MichaelAnthony Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. The real comedy is that your mind went there! Watching a little too much Home & Garden Channel? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckakers 426 #25 September 24, 2013 airtwardo *********Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. What kind of soil do you use? I find that impact crater yields the best results...pure virgin soil sprinkled with bullshit ~ best fertilizer going! Mmmm, virgin soil.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
nadominhoca 0 #16 September 24, 2013 Chuck, I respect your opinions, but not necessarily agree with them... altough I believe I need more training and experience, like all of the other jumpers out there.. this is a sport where you learn things everyday, in every single jump! In any case, you are not insulting me, not at all.. I just think it's funny that you don't agree with a single topic that I wrote it.. it's difficult to argue with someone who simply believes that knows everything! I could go on and on again about every answer that you gave me, but I don;t wanna create a big discussion here.. my whole point, is that, we have people with different skills and different capabilities.. taking EPs for example.. there are a lot of reccommendations for sure, and common pratices... but each one deals with it, the way they are able to! Everybody wants to learn.. no one wants to get hurt and hurt the others.. but what I am saying is that you can't say this is right, or this is worng in every situation our there.. that's why I mentioned that it's your instincts, training and capabilities that will dictate how you react.. by the way, I don;t agree that instinct are purely result of training.. And just one more comment, regarding my last point: "Now, regarding the other jumpers around.. Dude, that's mainly THEIR responsibilities to check traffic and get away from jumpers with malfunctions". Yeap, I agree with you, that the lower jump has the preference, you can't avoid what you can;t see, etc.. but it's everybody's jobs to monitor the traffic 100% of the time!!! Knows where you are, knows who jumped before you at the jump run... In any case, I think it's a good post, altough I don;t agree the way you describe and judge the person.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #17 September 24, 2013 nadominhoca...and judge the person.. I wasn't judging the person. I was critiquing the person's actions. Confusing the two makes constructive conversation nearly impossible.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rifleman 70 #18 September 24, 2013 nadominhoca ! Knows where you are, knows who jumped before you at the jump run... Doesn't always help as I've left the aircraft after someone else (both of us on S/L) and ended up as the lower canopy and then spent time looking below me for the previous jumper when he's actually above.Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #19 September 24, 2013 QuoteIn any case, you are not insulting me, not at all.. I just think it's funny that you don't agree with a single topic that I wrote it.. it's difficult to argue with someone who simply believes that knows everything! Just to clarify ~ Chuck is an organizer at one of the largest Dz's in the U.S., He's been a DZO and ran a top notch organization for years. He will be the first to tell ya he doesn't 'know it all' but much of his time in the sport has been dedicated to helping others become safe and proficient skydivers. I've been in the sport longer than Chuck, but I have no reservation about seeking his opinion regarding any question I may have. When his input doesn't agree with what I was thinking...I tend to take a harder look at what I was thinking. There is a big difference between being instructional & being argumentative, Sometimes that difference doesn't translate will in written form...but FWIW I agree with Chuck on his assessment. There really isn't all that much wiggle room on what should be done, when & how. The excuses that manifest following someone not adhering to recognized procedures invariably come down to that person either not fully understanding the situation or them thinking their mad skills allow for a different approach. Either way the ground Doesn't Care ~ we do what we do because over time and trial it's shown to be the most effective way to insure participation another day. In other words - no one has ever been trained to dick with a malfunction for 1/2 a minute, and if they think doing so is ok then their judgement is in question. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MichaelAnthony 0 #20 September 24, 2013 Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #21 September 24, 2013 MichaelAnthony Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #22 September 24, 2013 airtwardo ***Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. What kind of soil do you use?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #23 September 24, 2013 Remster ******Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. What kind of soil do you use? I find that impact crater yields the best results...pure virgin soil sprinkled with bullshit ~ best fertilizer going! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #24 September 24, 2013 MichaelAnthony Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. The real comedy is that your mind went there! Watching a little too much Home & Garden Channel? Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #25 September 24, 2013 airtwardo *********Dont you guys all skydive? Sounds to me this is a forum for the pottery barn. Martha Stewart and Oprah argueing over what kind of soil to use for sun flowers. Yeah I've been known to make a jump now & then...only between flower plantin' seasons though. What kind of soil do you use? I find that impact crater yields the best results...pure virgin soil sprinkled with bullshit ~ best fertilizer going! Mmmm, virgin soil.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
