Nightingale 0 #51 February 25, 2004 Who are you to judge who is and isn't a skydiver? That's just plain rude. Attack the argument, not the person, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #52 February 25, 2004 BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You'll get over it. Laters, .The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #53 February 25, 2004 >But you are still not concenting to malpractice. Then why did you sign a form saying you will? >But an engined failed inspite of the mechanic or the DZ operator > knowing fairly well that it would but let it pass any way to make the > extra buck on the strength of a waiver, now do you consider that > assumed risk or some sort of malicious intent ? I'd consider that a very stupid, careless and negligent thing to do. I know it can happen, because I signed a waiver that said that the aircraft operators can be careless and negligent, so negligent that it could cause my death. I would avoid DZ's that did that. If I did agree to take the risk and jump at one, I wouldn't later decide that I suddenly didn't agree to the risk. I expect people to keep their word, even if you have a reeaaly good lawyer who can get them out of a signed consent. Those are my standards. You may have different ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #54 February 25, 2004 QuoteI expect people to keep their word, even if you have a reeaaly good lawyer who can get them out of a signed consent. Those are my standards. You may have different ones. Right on Bill! Don't these people get it? I mean that is like a student who doesn't listen to the instructor then blames that person when they get hurt. I mean you can spin any incident into anything. Get real people this sport can KILL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you cannot handle that then quit. Laters, .The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #55 February 25, 2004 >You will know a substandard operation when you see one. Believe me. Like one that had to use 5 gallon cans of gas since the airport refused to sell them any off their pumps due to being that far behind on their bills? Ohh, oh, oh.. how about the one that used similar parts from the hardware store to hold the wheels on since factory replacement parts were on back order? Lets not forget the one that had enough leaks in the Cessna you had to get a towel to dry out the inside after a good rain storm. DZ's selling food with out vender licences/health board inspections, "safety meetings", and how many other things can I think of? And those are just DZ's I've been to. I did'nt jump at them all, but thats just a small sample of DZ issues.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #56 February 25, 2004 DZs don't make us sign waivers as a promise not to sue. They know very well we (and more likely, first time students) will sue. It's happened before. The waiver is proof that we understood the risks involved with what we were doing. I know you don't agree with me. But that's the way I see it. I firmly believe that anyone suing a DZ for anything other than gross negligence should automatically lose. In many cases of gross negligence, they should lose. But I believe there are cases where a lawsuit is not out of the question. But as I said in the other thread, I hope when I've been there and done that like you have, I'm not going around preaching that skydiving is dangerous because DZs are known to be negligent and always have been. I hope I'm crusading for better service from the DZs. A world of skydiving that doesn't even need to cover gross negligence in the waivers because gross negligence is simply out of the question. Do I accept that some nasty stuff has gone on in the past? Course. Do I accept that some nasty stuff still goes on? Sure. Am I ok with it continuing in the future? Nope! The day I just sit back and accept without question that my pilot might be drunk or my DZO might have cut my reserve ripcord for fun is the day I should (but wouldn't anyway) quit the sport. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #57 February 25, 2004 QuoteA reputable operation with professionalism is not knowingly going to put your life in danger. And who in this whole debate is trying to single out a "A reputable operation with professionalism " The whole point of this debate is what if you come across total unprofessionalism at a DZ. Unprofessionalism to the extent that it's malicious in intent and you don't know about it or haven't been made aware of it but are made to sign a consent in the belief that you are signing for that very professionalism. If such a case were to indeed happen, ofcourse in your wisdom it will not, but should it happen then is the assumption of risk on the waiver that you consent too valid as an argument to shield such an operation. Does this waiver in theory and in practice mean that the DZ has absolutely no responsibility towards malicious intent and intended malpractice. And please, stick to making an argument not a judgement. Last when I checked with my instructor the definition of being a Skydiver was still something to do with passion towards the sport and not jump numbers and frequent flier miles. Ofcourse if that's changed since I jumped last I withdraw my statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #58 February 25, 2004 >DZs don't make us sign waivers as a promise not to sue. ----------------- 3) AGREEMENT NOT TO SUE. I agree never to institute any lawsuit or cause of action against any of the Releasees, or to initiate or to assist in the prosecution of any claim for damages against the Releasees which I may have by reason of injury to my person or property, or my death, arising from the activities covered by this agreement, whether caused by the negligence or fault, active or passive, of any of the Releasees, or from any other cause. ---------------- >It's happened before. Rigs have been stolen before. If someone took yours and put a few hundred jumps on it, would you give them a pass because it's "just what happens?" I know people sue DZ's - it doesn't make it any less wrong. >Do I accept that some nasty stuff has gone on in the past? Course. >Do I accept that some nasty stuff still goes on? Sure. Am I ok with it >continuing in the future? Nope! I'm not either. >The day I just sit back and accept without question that my pilot >might be drunk or my DZO might have cut my reserve ripcord for fun >is the day I should (but wouldn't anyway) quit the sport. Never accept that! Find out if they are doing it, and tell everyone you know. Get them to avoid that DZ. Tell the owner in no uncertain terms that their pilot is drunk and should be fired or you (and the people you know) will never jump again. Write to your regional rep and tell him. Just don't take the coward's way out, slink off, hire a lawyer and do the very thing you promised you would not do. That doesn't save anyone's life, and 90% of the time it doesn't close them down anyway. It only makes the lawyers richer. So decide what's important to you. Your word, the future of skydiving, and the lives of your friends, or money. Act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #59 February 25, 2004 QuoteDepends. Is it a recurring history, or an isolated occurence by an employee long since gone? If they are recurring incidents of misfueling, I hope someone will let me know and I won't jump there again. You had no trouble digging up the report on the contaminated fuel but did not bother to find out how the fuel became contaminated. By innuendo you have convicted them of willfully using contaminated fuel. Do you know this to be the case or are you guessing? QuoteHas it occurred to you that there may be a reason that skydiving aviation operations have a worse accident record than just about any other area of general aviation? As a pilot you should be aware that the most critical part of a flight is the take off and the landing. What other area of general aviation conducts as many take off and landings per hour of flight as skydiving aircraft. I think you are trying to support your position by comparing apples and oranges. AS a pilot do you follow the owners manual for your aircraft, i.e. check lists, for every flight? If you say yes, it would not be the truth.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmpnkramer 0 #60 February 25, 2004 QuoteThe whole point of this debate is what if you come across total unprofessionalism at a DZ. Unprofessionalism to the extent that it's malicious in intent and you don't know about it or haven't been made aware of it but are made to sign a consent in the belief that you are signing for that very professionalism. This is not the point of the debate. It is about signing a waiver. At my DZ you have the option to buy your rights back. It is $300 a jump. Personally though if you do not feel right about the place then why are you jumping there? Like I said before, when you travel and get some time and an education in the sport you will understand better. I know many of ya'll out there with your "A" license think you know everything there is about the sport. Maybe someday you will listen and learn. Hopfully you won't kill yourself or one of my longtime friends in your quest. Laters, .The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER! "HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!" "Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #61 February 25, 2004 ...Yep, that's what the waiver says alright. QuoteRigs have been stolen before. If someone took yours and put a few hundred jumps on it, would you give them a pass because it's "just what happens?" You're asking ME? Course I wouldn't let that go. What would YOU do? I sure as hell wouldn't sue though! That would just be stupid. And not because of any waiver. If a DZ is negligent to the point that they have already hurt or killed someone, directly due to their gross negligence, sure, I'll walk away and tell my friends not to jump there. But ya know who's still gonna be jumping there? YOUR friends, because I don't know them to tell them not to jump there. By picking up and just leaving, you're letting the dangerous activities continue. I say demand better. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #62 February 25, 2004 QuoteOn April 22, 1992, a de Havilland Twin Otter crashed during takeoff at Perris Valley, California after an engine lost power. The Safety Board determined that the accident was caused by contaminated fuel obtained from the improper handling of the air field’s fuel tanks and the pilot's improper actions after the power loss. 14 fatalities. Wrong. There were 16 fatalities. 14 jumpers, 2 crew. http://www.planecrashinfo.com/1992/1992-19.htm http://members.aol.com/jaydeebee1/crash90s.html http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/former/hall/jh970920.htm tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
